Sash Window cills and reveal lining - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
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post #1 of 16 Old 07-30-2017, 03:52 AM Thread Starter
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Sash Window cills and reveal lining

We just took delivery of a set of new windows that are already made, painted and ready to install. However the old victorian windows had the cill and reveal lining routed out and then nailed in.

On this occasion it seems they didn't bother to do that and have supplied them as loose fittings to be installed onsite once you install the windows.

So my question is how best to install them? I was thinking of using a Kreg pocket hole jig to connect them.

The cills are 40mm thick by around 100mm depth, the reveal lining is 20mm thick by 70mm and 50mm (dependant on window)

However if this isn't the best way or any alternative way I would appreciate some guidance.
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post #2 of 16 Old 07-30-2017, 07:05 AM
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In the normal construction of a house, the window frame and all parts are normally just nailed in place. Why would you not just do the same?

George
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post #3 of 16 Old 07-30-2017, 07:44 AM
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I think we need pictures of what you have. Sometimes you have to trim a window with completely different trim and sometimes you can remove the old trim, pull the nails and resize it to fit with a new window.
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post #4 of 16 Old 07-30-2017, 07:44 AM Thread Starter
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I suppose I was looking for something more secure than just nailing it through because they have supplied them completely finished. While the old ones were nailed they were also routed into the the frame. Alas they haven't routed out the positions on the new windows.

It's also hardwood as apposed to softwood so I didn't want to use brads which is what I took off the old ones.

I saw the alternative as either using pocket holes to secure from the side that would not be seen in the cill/stool and the reveal lining would be hidden anyway because the plaster would come up to it.
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post #5 of 16 Old 07-30-2017, 07:54 AM Thread Starter
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Images of the old small bathroom window and the replacement new one (with also the larger bedroom one).
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post #6 of 16 Old 07-30-2017, 07:55 AM Thread Starter
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Image of the old window with the cill/stool in situ and reveal lining with architrave attached.
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post #7 of 16 Old 07-30-2017, 09:00 AM
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It appears the trim on the outside is old. If it hasn't been broken when removed you might check it for size to see if it would work on the new window. If so take paint and varnish remover and strip it and remove nails and clean it up to be reused. The trim in the inside appears to be modern molding and unless it's needed to exactly match something else in the room I think I would pitch it and purchase new molding. Any trim carpenter should be able to fabricate new window sills and trim out the windows.
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post #8 of 16 Old 07-30-2017, 09:02 AM Thread Starter
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It appears the trim on the outside is old. If it hasn't been broken when removed you might check it for size to see if it would work on the new window. If so take paint and varnish remover and strip it and remove nails and clean it up to be reused. The trim in the inside appears to be modern molding and unless it's needed to exactly match something else in the room I think I would pitch it and purchase new molding. Any trim carpenter should be able to fabricate new window sills and trim out the windows.

I already have the cills and liners, they were made with the windows. However they were not routed out for them to be easily installed. So I was wondering the best way to connect them after you have installed the window.

All the fittings have already been made and painted.
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post #9 of 16 Old 07-30-2017, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by spacey3 View Post
I already have the cills and liners, they were made with the windows. However they were not routed out for them to be easily installed. So I was wondering the best way to connect them after you have installed the window.

All the fittings have already been made and painted.
Not being there I don't know how any of us can get that specific on the installation. Nothing ever falls into place. You either have to do some modification on the millwork or the house. I think you are going to have to get a trim carpenter there that can best evaluate the installation.
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post #10 of 16 Old 07-30-2017, 09:28 AM Thread Starter
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Oh one will, but I wanted to know how best you guys would connect the loose wood around the window once it has been installed. As I said previously the used to be routed out and then nailed from the back or bottom on the old Victorian windows. However (even though when they were manufactured I asked) they didn't router them out.

So going back to my original question, how would you attach it to the actual window, would you just nail it through? Router the window out again (which I really am not sure of having someone do since they are new and assembled windows). Or Pocket hole from the back and screw into the window.

I am sure there will be some cutting, use of expanding foam round them since they are in a cavity wall and the entire room needs plastering.

I've attached another image that might be better, it's the only bit of the reveal lining still left from the side that you can see how it was originally attached.
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post #11 of 16 Old 07-30-2017, 11:04 AM
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A window sill provides no structural function. It does not hold any weight nor any other function.

All a window sill does is sit there and close off an open area and/or look pretty. Therefore a minimum amount of fastenings are required.

Do not complicate what is otherwise a simple operation.

George
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post #12 of 16 Old 07-30-2017, 01:22 PM Thread Starter
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Ok thanks, I suppose it's because I saw one that a joiner did years ago in my house that was part of an insurance claim because water was coming through. They replaced the internal cill and screwed it straight onto the window frame, but never filled the screws in and they could be seen. I just didn't want that to happen again.
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post #13 of 16 Old 07-30-2017, 04:12 PM
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Ok thanks, I suppose it's because I saw one that a joiner did years ago in my house that was part of an insurance claim because water was coming through. They replaced the internal cill and screwed it straight onto the window frame, but never filled the screws in and they could be seen. I just didn't want that to happen again.
Yes there is all kinds of bad work being done. This is what gives contractors a bad reputation. Sometimes it's necessary to put nails or screws through the face but a reputable craftsman would have either trimmed over it or filled it and touched up the paint. If it happens this time don't pay for the work until it pleases you.
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post #14 of 16 Old 08-04-2017, 11:08 AM
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can't be certain from the pics, it appears that you have "replacement windows" which are intended to be installed into a pocket, held in place with stops. the stops and original sashes are removed from the existing windows, and the replacement window is installed/caulked/insulated. then the stop is reinstalled.


the sill, the slanted element on the outside bottom, is typically not disturbed on this type of install. again not certain on what you have.
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post #15 of 16 Old 08-09-2017, 10:43 AM
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It appears that your old windows were made on the spot when the house was built and now you're trying to fit a new window that obviously wasn't built on the spot to fit.
I'm probably missing something you're asking, but you will pretty much have to do some rebuilding and custom work. The new frames are made to match what amounts to industry standards while the existing framework was built to match the house as it was built. It's like trying to fit a 2017 radiator into a 1923 Ford.. Sure you can do it, but you're going to have to do some rebuilding of the old Ford..
I'd probably use thin layers of wood and build them up till things match and use waterproof glue and make sure to use a good oil based primer so water doesn't soak in and you end up having to redo it all in two years.

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post #16 of 16 Old 08-09-2017, 11:28 AM
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A simple solution to attaching parts w/o showing fasteners is to use a Festo Domino machine. You can fit each part and after assuring that all fits well use glue and press the parts in place. The dominos fit snuggly so for non-structural use you may not need any clamping. You can get water proof Dominos if needed. Attach as much as you can before placing the windows. If clamping is needed, jury rig something to press on the parts while the glue sets. 2x4's to the opposite wall? Open the window and clamp through from the outside?
The construction looks like you are in the UK. I lived in London for awhile.
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