Rebuilding Drum Frame - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
 4Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 22 Old 05-12-2020, 01:43 PM Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 12
View jcmcobra's Photo Album My Photos
Rebuilding Drum Frame

Greetings Woodworkers,


I have a 12 sided drum frame that came apart.


The pieces won't fit together, so I'm wondering if the wood swelled and I'll have to slice a piece off. Does this sound right to you? My intuition is that wood swells in the other direction.


Thanks for your help.


OH! While we're at this - I'll need to clean the joints before reattaching. How would you go about this. The old adhesive looks like a typical water based glue.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	frame-drum.jpg
Views:	18
Size:	192.5 KB
ID:	389243  

Click image for larger version

Name:	sectionFit-drum.jpg
Views:	19
Size:	133.5 KB
ID:	389245  

jcmcobra is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 22 Old 05-12-2020, 11:44 PM
where's my table saw?
 
woodnthings's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: SE, Michigan
Posts: 27,323
View woodnthings's Photo Album My Photos
If that were mine .....

The first thing I would do is scrape off all the old yellow glue I could.

Then I would try to reassemble it dry and get as good if a 12 sided shape as possible so I could make a 12 sided wood pattern from 1/2" plywood by carefully drafting the segments using a compass and protractor for the angles. Each segment will need to be of equal length by using your compass and walking it around the circle from intersection to intersection. Once you have a good pattern, fit all the segments up to it and then see if they will reassemble without gaps.


If the pattern is accurate and the segments fit, then you can proceed with gluing them back in place. A band of clear packing tape around the pattern will prevent them form getting glued to it. I have had good luck with hot glue. It's actually quite strong and easier to work with, but very hot and will stick to you fingers ....like ...well, hot glue! It has a quick set time so you must have a plan and be nimble.Once it's stuck, that's it. No getting it unstuck. The other choice is more wood glue like Titebond 2, but clamping will be a real issue which is why I suggested hot glue .... no clamping. If you get to the last piece and it doesn't quite fit, a bit of accurate sanding may be required on the disc sander...... OR the table saw with the blade set to the correct bevel angle and a cross cut sled or extended miter gauge fence will be the safest method for cutting them. A miter saw would be the next choice, but keep your fingers away from the blade. small piece are dangerous unless they are secured very well, maybe a clap?



This is a challenging operation, but doable for sure if you have a good plan and are patient and accurate!

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
woodnthings is online now  
post #3 of 22 Old 05-13-2020, 11:17 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Troy Michigan USA
Posts: 1,224
View gmercer_48083's Photo Album My Photos
jcmcobra, With birds mouth router bit, a router and a table saw... It is a simple process to attain a perfect joint. And it will be quite strong.
They are available based on how many sided needed.

Gary

Woodworking is like wetting myself....Only I know that warm feeling!
gmercer_48083 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 22 Old 05-13-2020, 11:22 AM Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 12
View jcmcobra's Photo Album My Photos
Thanks woodnthings. The way I posed my questions must not have been clear.


If you look at the first picture you will see three pieces of the drum frame. One large piece consists of nine sections still intact. One piece of consists of two sections. One single section. The goal is to end up with one intact piece consisting of twelve sections.


The obvious fix is to reassemble the three pieces and glue the three joints. The problem is that they no longer fit together. There is no gap between the joints - it's the opposite problem. I cannot force the last piece into place. Please look at the second picture.


It seems that the reason the frame came apart is that the wood expanded and forced the joints apart.


Does it make sense to you that the wood might expand lengthwise along the grain like that? That is my first question.


How do I remove the old adhesive from the joints that came apart? That is my second question.



Actually, I already have a good idea on how to remove the adhesive. I just thought some of you pros might have a better idea.


Thanks for your help.
jcmcobra is offline  
post #5 of 22 Old 05-13-2020, 11:32 AM Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 12
View jcmcobra's Photo Album My Photos
Thanks Gary.


This might well be useful in the future, as I plan to make drum shells in the future, but it doesn't address my immediate questions.
jcmcobra is offline  
post #6 of 22 Old 05-13-2020, 12:13 PM
where's my table saw?
 
woodnthings's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: SE, Michigan
Posts: 27,323
View woodnthings's Photo Album My Photos
The pieces did not "grow" .....

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcmcobra View Post
Thanks woodnthings. The way I posed my questions must not have been clear.


If you look at the first picture you will see three pieces of the drum frame. One large piece consists of nine sections still intact. One piece of consists of two sections. One single section. The goal is to end up with one intact piece consisting of twelve sections.


The obvious fix is to reassemble the three pieces and glue the three joints. The problem is that they no longer fit together. There is no gap between the joints - it's the opposite problem. I cannot force the last piece into place. Please look at the second picture.


It seems that the reason the frame came apart is that the wood expanded and forced the joints apart.


Does it make sense to you that the wood might expand lengthwise along the grain like that?
That is my first question.


How do I remove the old adhesive from the joints that came apart? That is my second question.



Actually, I already have a good idea on how to remove the adhesive. I just thought some of you pros might have a better idea.


Thanks for your help.

Wood expands across it's width, not along it's length. If you can not

fit the last piece in, then you have 2 choices. Sand or saw it to fit. OR spring the entire assembly open so it will fit. If the assembly was "off" then you won't know where or why. This is why I suggested making an exact template by using an accurate drawing and fitting it inside the assembled pieces. You may find the some or all of the pieces are not the same length, the template will tell you.



I'd be inclined to just spring it open a bit more, hopefully without breaking another glue joint.



As far as removing the old glue, scrape of as much as possible first. Then hold the piece over a steam kettle or other source of steam to soften the old glue. Some say vinegar will soften PVA wood glue, but I haven't tried it.

https://www.google.com/search?client...move+wood+glue


jcmcobra likes this.

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
woodnthings is online now  
post #7 of 22 Old 05-13-2020, 12:33 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: NW Pa
Posts: 2,973
View TimPa's Photo Album My Photos
you are right, it looks like the assembly has changed shape (due to the change in moisture content). the reason that happened is because finish has not been applied to the inside of the drum case, and only applied to the outside of the case. this causes a moisture imbalance in the wood, depending on the season - dry or humid. my guess is that it is in a dry spell, shrinking the inside while the outside remains stable.

personally, i would not cut or sand "to fit" yet. i would try to expose the pieces to a humid or moist environment

maybe with a humidifier in a box, bag or can. and see if that opens up the case. do it carefully and check it often, as you don't want to worsen the situation. note, if hyde glue was used, you may experince joint failure.
jcmcobra likes this.

Last edited by TimPa; 05-13-2020 at 02:32 PM.
TimPa is offline  
post #8 of 22 Old 05-13-2020, 12:39 PM Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 12
View jcmcobra's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by woodnthings View Post
I'd be inclined to just spring it open a bit more, hopefully without breaking another glue joint.

It has only the slightest bit of give. Not enough to squeeze that last piece in. I'll try to wedge it open a bit more.



Quote:
Originally Posted by woodnthings View Post
As far as removing the old glue, scrape of as much as possible first. Then hold the piece over a steam kettle or other source of steam to soften the old glue.

That's why I came to you guys! Hadn't thought of steam. I've used hot water with good results in the past, but it's risky on wood, especially if it has a finish.
jcmcobra is offline  
post #9 of 22 Old 05-13-2020, 02:23 PM Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 12
View jcmcobra's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimPa View Post
you are right, it looks like the assembly has changed shape (due to the change in moisture content). the reason that happened is because finish has not been applied to the inside of the drum case, and only applied to the outside of the case. this causes an moisture imbalance in the wood, depending on the season - dry or humid. my guess is that it is in a dry spell, shrinking the inside while the outside remains stable.

That seems to correlate with what I've seen.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TimPa View Post
i would try to expose the pieces to a humid or moist environment

The shell came to me from an arid environment. My little shop is quite damp. I've actually seen enough condensation for drops to fall. I'll leave the shell there as I clean up the joints.
jcmcobra is offline  
post #10 of 22 Old 05-14-2020, 10:16 AM
Senior Member
 
TomCT2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Central PA
Posts: 1,392
View TomCT2's Photo Album My Photos
if you trace the drum shape on a large pc of paper, then rotate the piece, you can fairly easily see if it is "round"
excepting, of course, was it supposed to be round from the start?
is it the photo angle - or are the segments different thicknesses?


whether you get it stretched so the old pc fits in or re-cut, getting wood to take a second dose of glue is a very dicey business.
I would be tempted to go with a two part epoxy.
gmercer_48083 likes this.
TomCT2 is offline  
post #11 of 22 Old 05-14-2020, 11:42 AM Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 12
View jcmcobra's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomCT2 View Post
is it the photo angle - or are the segments different thicknesses?

It's the angle.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TomCT2 View Post
whether you get it stretched so the old pc fits in or re-cut, getting wood to take a second dose of glue is a very dicey business.

Exactly. I'm hoping to completely remove the old glue.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TomCT2 View Post
I would be tempted to go with a two part epoxy.

I really like epoxy, except that it can really be difficult to remove if/when needed.
jcmcobra is offline  
post #12 of 22 Old 05-14-2020, 02:12 PM
where's my table saw?
 
woodnthings's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: SE, Michigan
Posts: 27,323
View woodnthings's Photo Album My Photos
Question .....

Why are there two glue lines in this photo?


The glue line on the face doesn't make sense unless these are butt joints, not miters, or a combination of both.


This photo shows an angled glue joint at 9 o'clock, a sign of either poor craftsmanship OR an obvious mis-alignment:

That could be part of the reason it won't spring open or fit back together..... I donno?

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)

Last edited by woodnthings; 05-14-2020 at 02:25 PM.
woodnthings is online now  
post #13 of 22 Old 05-14-2020, 06:33 PM
Senior Member
 
TomCT2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Central PA
Posts: 1,392
View TomCT2's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcmcobra View Post
I really like epoxy, except that it can really be difficult to remove if/when needed.
that would be the third iteration of a failed joint.
at that point in time, it would be appropriate to toss the underlying item and seek a new path.
woodnthings likes this.
TomCT2 is offline  
post #14 of 22 Old 05-14-2020, 08:49 PM
where's my table saw?
 
woodnthings's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: SE, Michigan
Posts: 27,323
View woodnthings's Photo Album My Photos
I was thinkin' the same thing .....

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomCT2 View Post
that would be the third iteration of a failed joint.
at that point in time, it would be appropriate to toss the underlying item and seek a new path.

With the obvious "flaws" visible and the lack of accurate fitment it may be better to start over, depending of the machine tools available. I wouldn't attempt the build without a good blade in a good table saw with a good miter gauge. The 12 sided shape means a bevel angle of 15 degrees on each end if the pieces will be a miter type joint. The blue tape trick and an accurate template or drawing would be my way of getting the shape glued up and symetrically oriented. After the sections have dried any sanding on the outside would be easy, like rounder over the sharp intersections. I did make a 12 section clock frame at one point, maybe high school wood shop? I don't know where it is now though..... but I still have the plans.

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
woodnthings is online now  
post #15 of 22 Old 05-15-2020, 02:09 PM Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 12
View jcmcobra's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by woodnthings View Post
Why are there two glue lines in this photo?


The glue line on the face doesn't make sense unless these are butt joints, not miters, or a combination of both.
No purpose for it. I think it's just a spill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by woodnthings View Post
This photo shows an angled glue joint at 9 o'clock, a sign of either poor craftsmanship OR an obvious mis-alignment:

That could be part of the reason it won't spring open or fit back together..... I donno?
You're right - the joints don't perfectly match there, thought the joint is perfectly flush otherwise. All the intact joints are flush.

Generally speaking, I think it's fair to say that drum makers aren't necessarily accomplished woodworkers. This may be an example of that.
jcmcobra is offline  
post #16 of 22 Old 05-15-2020, 02:20 PM Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 12
View jcmcobra's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomCT2 View Post
that would be the third iteration of a failed joint.path.

Do not beckon !



Quote:
Originally Posted by TomCT2 View Post
at that point in time, it would be appropriate to toss the underlying item and seek a new path.

I'm working on fixing this.
jcmcobra is offline  
post #17 of 22 Old 05-15-2020, 02:27 PM Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 12
View jcmcobra's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by woodnthings View Post
I wouldn't attempt the build without a good blade in a good table saw with a good miter gauge.

I have a decent selection of hand tools and my beloved screw gun.



Quote:
Originally Posted by woodnthings View Post
..... but I still have the plans.

I would't mind a look regardless of whether needed for this project or not.
jcmcobra is offline  
post #18 of 22 Old 05-15-2020, 02:58 PM Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 12
View jcmcobra's Photo Album My Photos
Making progress here. I've managed to remove the old glue and place every section back in place.





It's not nearly as out of round as it appears.


I'll correct a couple of very slight gaps on the inside with some discreet sanding.






I've got good surfaces to work with and feel good about my prospects.


Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	shell.jpg
Views:	40
Size:	196.4 KB
ID:	389417  

Click image for larger version

Name:	joint.jpg
Views:	38
Size:	130.5 KB
ID:	389421  

Click image for larger version

Name:	cleanJoint.jpg
Views:	40
Size:	250.8 KB
ID:	389425  

jcmcobra is offline  
post #19 of 22 Old 05-15-2020, 05:05 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Florida Panhandle
Posts: 12,388
View GeorgeC's Photo Album My Photos
In the second picture I see a large gap that will make it difficult to get a good glue joint.


George
GeorgeC is online now  
post #20 of 22 Old 05-15-2020, 05:27 PM Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 12
View jcmcobra's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeC View Post
In the second picture I see a large gap that will make it difficult to get a good glue joint.

Yes, I hope sanding will correct this.
jcmcobra is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome