Rail and stile gaps - Page 2 - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
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post #21 of 40 Old 06-07-2013, 04:50 PM
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Maybe thickness was bad to include in the list but everything else applies. It looks like the wood is skewed which is cutting less material out of the bottom VS the top and vice versa depending on which way he cuts it.

I was using thickness as an indicator of a good piece of wood.
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post #22 of 40 Old 06-07-2013, 08:45 PM
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The board on the bottom needs to have a deeper cut. This opens the cope and allows the top board to move into place. That's why it looks cocked.

Is this a router bit or shaper? My cutters require shimming between the cutters. If its a router depth is your problem.

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post #23 of 40 Old 06-07-2013, 11:48 PM Thread Starter
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I am using a router. When you say that depth is my problem, are you referring to the fact that the cutters do not extend radially beyond the guide bushing far enough? That seems to be my problem, the protrusions are too short to fill the grooves. The ogee profiles are contacting each other and preventing the joint from closing up.

I'm not sure how adding shims anywhere could solve this dilemma. I did add a shim to adjust the thickness if the tenon, but it didn't change the gaps along the joint.

I'm also thinking that if the board wasn't exactly square, then one edge of the joint, either top bottom left or right, should close up. However, I have a pretty uniform gap throughout the joint.
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post #24 of 40 Old 06-08-2013, 12:00 AM
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If your coping cut is bottomed out, try making your stile cut a little more shallow. That may do the trick. Small adjustment to the fence should be enough.

Brian
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post #25 of 40 Old 06-08-2013, 12:39 AM
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In the first set of pictures, I would guess that chips or a rough cut are preventing closure.

You shouldn't expect the tenon to fully seat into the mortise but the Ogee faces should close up and the back of the mortise and tenon should close up.

I don't think that the parts of the bits need adjusting as in the first set of pictures the Ogee and M&T matched up nicely.

If the thickness of the pieces are not the same, you set up will be H***. The issue is that one bit references the outside of the frame while the other bit references the inside of the frame. The zero point reference is the router table.

Usually I do the ends of the rails first. Then using a test piece set the height for the stiles. The trick of set up is look at how the stile fits and decide which way the WOOD has to move to fit perfectly. Then move the router bit in the opposite direction. Usually I look at the part of the Ogee cut that is flat or a little step. I measure how far off that little step is relative to the rail. Measure it with a 64th reading ruler and then adjust the bit height.

Finally, the type of bit set that you are using requires that the bearing be used to control the depth of cut. A zero clearance fence doesn't hurt and set the fence about half of a 64th back so that you are guaranteed that the bearing controls the depth of the cut.

Use the right tool for the job.

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post #26 of 40 Old 06-09-2013, 12:10 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BZawat
If your coping cut is bottomed out, try making your stile cut a little more shallow. That may do the trick. Small adjustment to the fence should be enough.

Brian
Brian, I think your suggestion should work well. If I use the fence to make the rail cut shallower, then it should close everything up. However, is that to be expected with a matched bit set? It seems that using the fence to control depth obviates the guide bearing.

Jeremy
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post #27 of 40 Old 06-09-2013, 12:12 AM Thread Starter
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I meant cut the stile shallower. I'm still learning the nomenclature.
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post #28 of 40 Old 06-09-2013, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterjer

Brian, I think your suggestion should work well. If I use the fence to make the rail cut shallower, then it should close everything up. However, is that to be expected with a matched bit set? It seems that using the fence to control depth obviates the guide bearing.

Jeremy
Indeed it does. But in a small town such as this, with no sheriff and only one stop light, these things will happen.

Brian
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post #29 of 40 Old 06-20-2013, 11:15 PM Thread Starter
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I wanted to close this thread out. I sent the set back to MLCS at their suggestion. They informed me there was a problem with the fit of the matching bits and they have sent out a new set that they checked out first.

Thanks for all your help. I was worried that I was missing the obvious since I've never done rail and stile construction before.

Jeremy
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post #30 of 40 Old 06-20-2013, 11:19 PM
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There you have it. I like there customer service and there bits you just got a rare bad one. It happens to all companies at some point.

Thanks for the update
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post #31 of 40 Old 06-24-2013, 10:48 AM
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I see the problem from the first picture, your wood is at 2 different thicknesses. Do you own a planer? If you are buying your wood from a home center the wood is rarely the same thickness from board to board. It may only be off 1/64th of an inch but when making doors thickness is very important as are test cuts and micro adjustments. If you fail to plane your wood to the same thickness you will always fight with making cabinetry. I am not saying it cannot be done but there will always be a struggle and or a TON of sanding. If you do not have a planer see if you have a friend with one or go to Home Depot and rent one to get all the wood for your project to the same thickness. I know that not everyone can afford a planer so sometimes renting is the only option.
A couple of other things that I noticed looking at the pictures, you may want to go a little deeper and run the router at a little higher then mid range and go a little slower. If you get burning speed up the router but keep the slower push through. I do not know what router you have but 2hp adjustable should do it. I use a triton 3.25hp router and keep it at about 5 in speed for the cut and push through moderatly, but mine are not always tight right off the bat, that is the fun of woodworking and the more you do it the better you will be.

Just a note, for a first attempt that is damn good.

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post #32 of 40 Old 06-24-2013, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schramm View Post
I see the problem from the first picture, your wood is at 2 different thicknesses. Do you own a planer? If you are buying your wood from a home center the wood is rarely the same thickness from board to board. It may only be off 1/64th of an inch but when making doors thickness is very important as are test cuts and micro adjustments. If you fail to plane your wood to the same thickness you will always fight with making cabinetry. I am not saying it cannot be done but there will always be a struggle and or a TON of sanding. If you do not have a planer see if you have a friend with one or go to Home Depot and rent one to get all the wood for your project to the same thickness. I know that not everyone can afford a planer so sometimes renting is the only option.
A couple of other things that I noticed looking at the pictures, you may want to go a little deeper and run the router at a little higher then mid range and go a little slower. If you get burning speed up the router but keep the slower push through. I do not know what router you have but 2hp adjustable should do it. I use a triton 3.25hp router and keep it at about 5 in speed for the cut and push through moderatly, but mine are not always tight right off the bat, that is the fun of woodworking and the more you do it the better you will be.

Just a note, for a first attempt that is damn good.
I'm guessing you didn't read all the way through the thread. If you had read the last two post before yours you may have caught it. However the problem here is you missed that part where he sent the bits back and they were replaced because of confirmed alignment problems.

No big deal really. It happens to everyone at some point.
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post #33 of 40 Old 06-26-2013, 11:49 PM Thread Starter
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Update. I got the new bits from MLCS and made my first joint (don't read too much into that statement, even though it is now legal where I live in Washington). This is how I expected it to look from the beginning.

Quick question, when you guys make doors, are the ends of the joints at the top and bottom of the door perfectly flush, or if nor, do you sand or run the end across the table saw to straighten the end?
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post #34 of 40 Old 06-27-2013, 01:53 AM
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Try to get the as even as possible. If not it can make a door un square depending on how large a door and how uneven. It also looks like crap if its not even.
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post #35 of 40 Old 06-27-2013, 07:16 AM
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+1 It's also important - for the same reason - to get your stile & rail pairs exactly the same length, or as close to exact as possible. This way if you are careful to flush everything out when you glue up, you know you've got a square door.

If cutting your stock on a miter saw, set up a stop block so there's no measuring, just bump your stock to the stop block and cut. Or you could use a crosscut sled on the TS and employ the same principle indexing either the saw's rip fence or an added stop block

If I'm doing a kitchen I'll cut all the stiles for the uppers at the same time to ensure they are all identical in length. Then I move the stop block and cut all the lowers, then the fridge & micro cab, etc then repeat the process for the rails.

Last edited by BZawat; 06-27-2013 at 07:21 AM.
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post #36 of 40 Old 06-27-2013, 08:08 AM
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I leave my stiles a little long (`1 inch each end). After the clue dries, I trim the rails (and of course the stile ends) to get the final door size.
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post #37 of 40 Old 06-27-2013, 08:32 PM
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Very informative thread.
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post #38 of 40 Old 06-28-2013, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeburner
I leave my stiles a little long (`1 inch each end). After the clue dries, I trim the rails (and of course the stile ends) to get the final door size.
I like this idea. It's always such a pisser getting the correct size door after routing. This way you can just glue them to the correct size, at least in one direction.

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post #39 of 40 Old 06-28-2013, 06:51 PM
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I assembly the rails flush with the bottom of the stile however I make my doors 1/8" wider and 1/8" longer than the finished size. Then I mill all four sides of the door with a routed edge that takes a 1/16" off per pass bringing it to the finished size.
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post #40 of 40 Old 06-28-2013, 06:55 PM
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If you cut them all at one time the same length they will be the same size. I actually cut one or two extra just in case when routing I get a bad cut or tear out. Plan for the worse hope for the best.
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