Rail and stile gaps - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 40 Old 06-04-2013, 02:42 AM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,043
View Masterjer's Photo Album My Photos
Rail and stile gaps

I tried my hand at some cabinet doors and am not sure how to adjust the router to solve my issue. I was able to adjust the tenon to fit nicely into the groove; however there are gaps in the joint.

It looks like the ogee profiles are mating before the tongue and groove shoulders make contact.

Any suggestions? I'm completely new to rails and stiles. I am using the MLCS matched bit set for these.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	image-1216628885.jpg
Views:	344
Size:	93.6 KB
ID:	72548  

Attached Images
 
Masterjer is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 40 Old 06-04-2013, 07:05 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 104
View willbess08's Photo Album My Photos
that looks really close for a first try! it took me forever to get mine set up right, might be a dumb question but are u clamping them tightly after assembly? the secret to a tight fit is a good screw clamp, ie jorgenson (sp) or bigfoots from rockler, screw them down tight and let them dry for fifteen or twenty minutes. scrap wood for buffers are good between the door and clamp to prevent dents. hope this helps, even in professional shops wood putty is still used to fill the gap left over on the ends.

Will Bess
Crowder Carpentry
Vale, NC
980-522-6408
http://www.facebook.com/CrowderCarpentryAndCabinets#
willbess08 is offline  
post #3 of 40 Old 06-04-2013, 08:50 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 25,995
View Steve Neul's Photo Album My Photos
The problem is the set isn't properly matched. Either the coping or the sticking needs more steel on it. It is bottoming out of the sticking before the joint closes up. If you can get any deeper cut with the coping you might be able to make it work however it will have an excessive gap at the end of the tenon.
Steve Neul is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 40 Old 06-04-2013, 09:12 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: morrow, ohio
Posts: 62
View byrd's Photo Album My Photos
If you are using a fence on the coping cut, make sure it is set back enough to rub the bearing with your wood. If you are then I think Steve is right about the bits not being matched up.
byrd is offline  
post #5 of 40 Old 06-04-2013, 09:47 AM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,043
View Masterjer's Photo Album My Photos
Thanks for the replies. I'll verify my fence setup, but I used a straightedge to make sure the fence was in line with the bearing.

I tried to force the pieces with a clamp but couldn't get them any closer.
Masterjer is offline  
post #6 of 40 Old 06-04-2013, 10:00 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Near Boston, Massachusetts
Posts: 1,530
View amckenzie4's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
The problem is the set isn't properly matched. Either the coping or the sticking needs more steel on it. It is bottoming out of the sticking before the joint closes up. If you can get any deeper cut with the coping you might be able to make it work however it will have an excessive gap at the end of the tenon.

This is what I was thinking. Look at the bottom picture. The rounded profile in the lower piece of wood, inside the slot, is stopping the top piece from sliding in the rest of the way. If it was me, I'd probably send the set back as being defective, because I don't think you'll ever get a perfect joint out of this set. You could check to see if that's the only place you have a problem by shaving off some of the mating convex curve with a rabbet plane, but you're not going to want to do that on every piece you ever cut, so I don't really see it as a long term solution.
amckenzie4 is offline  
post #7 of 40 Old 06-04-2013, 10:14 AM
Senior Member
 
BZawat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Wilkes-Barre, PA
Posts: 1,455
View BZawat's Photo Album My Photos
It looks as though the height settings of the two profiles are slightly different. This shouldn't cause a gap, but you never know. Before sending the bits back as faulty, I'd triple check that they are set perfectly for height and depth, that your fence is set perfectly, and that the tenon (on your cope cut) is making 100% contact with the rub bearing in between the cutters on the rail coping bit.

If you can verify all that, and it still doesn't fit, send em back. They should fit perfectly. No clamps, no filler, perfectly. I only clamp my doors ever so lightly to snug & hold them together while the glue dries. Too much pressure absolutely will bow the doors.

Ive never used MLCS bits. I have 2 sets (different profiles) by Freud and never had an issue once set up properly. Let us know what you come up with.

Brian
BZawat is offline  
post #8 of 40 Old 06-04-2013, 10:42 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 178
View calwilliams63's Photo Album My Photos
I would have to say it looks like the bit grinds aren't matched very well. I'm not familiar with that brand. I have a couple Freud cutters and have never had an issue and they fit like a glove without forcing them with clamps.

Last edited by calwilliams63; 06-05-2013 at 07:49 AM.
calwilliams63 is offline  
post #9 of 40 Old 06-04-2013, 12:23 PM
John
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: La Crosse, Kansas
Posts: 3,028
View jschaben's Photo Album My Photos
I've got that set and haven't had an issue. If you happened to pick up their setup block for that set, you could check that they match.

John

If I strive for perfection, I can generally achieve good'nuff, If I strive for good'nuff, I generally achieve firewood
jschaben is offline  
post #10 of 40 Old 06-04-2013, 12:26 PM
No Longer Here
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 6,839
View rrbrown's Photo Album My Photos
I have there bits and while it is possible that they don't match I doubt that is it. It looks as if the height is slightly off.

I would also like to know if that is one pass on the router? I have seen on single pass joints that you don't get a good clean cut. That is usually due to it bouncing a little especially with woods like oak. Which is hat it looks like you have there.

To instantly lame a tool or bit is strange. Just like with accidents it's rarely the tool or bits fault but rather user error.

Check the alignment and make a double pass I bet you can get it to fit perfectly.
rrbrown is offline  
post #11 of 40 Old 06-04-2013, 12:50 PM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,043
View Masterjer's Photo Album My Photos
Thanks for the thoughts. I did only make a single pass on some extra wood milled to the same dimensions as my stock. I wanted to verify that I could make the joint before running my door pieces through. I'll try making two passes on my oak stock to see if I can clean the joint up before deciding to send the bits back.
Masterjer is offline  
post #12 of 40 Old 06-04-2013, 01:14 PM
Sawdust Creator
 
ryan50hrl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 8,047
View ryan50hrl's Photo Album My Photos
I had an issue with their mission style bit set, I tried everything to remedy and never was able to. My doors luckily got a nice problem masking coat o white paint, so it wasn't a huge issue, but next time ill buy a better bit set.

The tools don't make the craftsman....
ryan50hrl is offline  
post #13 of 40 Old 06-04-2013, 01:16 PM
No Longer Here
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 6,839
View rrbrown's Photo Album My Photos
The height can be part of the problem also. Trial and error is the only way to get it right other then the set up blocks. So have a bunch of scraps available.
rrbrown is offline  
post #14 of 40 Old 06-04-2013, 07:17 PM
John
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: La Crosse, Kansas
Posts: 3,028
View jschaben's Photo Album My Photos
The thing with matched sets is needing to swap the bits and getting everything (bit height and fence position) returned to EXACTLY the same setting. I use a rubber grommet in the bottom of the collet so both bits have a common point of reference vertically (do not touch the height adjustments on the router when changing the bits) and use stop blocks on the fence so I can return it to exactly the same spot.

John

If I strive for perfection, I can generally achieve good'nuff, If I strive for good'nuff, I generally achieve firewood
jschaben is offline  
post #15 of 40 Old 06-04-2013, 07:24 PM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,043
View Masterjer's Photo Album My Photos
Take 2.

I removed a shim from the stile bit thinking that if I could shift the ogee profile a bit it may work. I got a tighter fit, but there is still a gap where the ogee profiles don't quite match up.

It still looks to me that if the ogee profiles march up, I will get gaps in the visible part of the joint.

I took several passes this time.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	image-4218162571.jpg
Views:	240
Size:	70.8 KB
ID:	72602  

Click image for larger version

Name:	image-1013546854.jpg
Views:	325
Size:	85.1 KB
ID:	72603  

Masterjer is offline  
post #16 of 40 Old 06-04-2013, 07:46 PM
No Longer Here
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 6,839
View rrbrown's Photo Album My Photos
The two pieces of wood look as though they are different thicknesses. It also looks like one was routed on a slight tilt. Maybe they don't match as stated but that would be rare. You should not have had to take the shim out if those are matching bits as in two of them. I have a set of reversible bits which is a real PITA.
rrbrown is offline  
post #17 of 40 Old 06-04-2013, 08:19 PM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,043
View Masterjer's Photo Album My Photos
Thanks rrbrown. I finally found the setup block I have been searching for and adjusted the bits to match the block. They matched pretty close, but not quite. I tried another pass anyway and ended up with the ogee profiles in complete surface contact, but it still left gaps. I think its time to send it back.
Attached Images
 
Masterjer is offline  
post #18 of 40 Old 06-07-2013, 11:01 AM
afx
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 387
View afx's Photo Album My Photos
I agree with rr brown, you need to make sure that both pieces of wood are exactly the same thickness and perfectly flat and especially square.
afx is offline  
post #19 of 40 Old 06-07-2013, 11:31 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: St. Paul, MN
Posts: 53
View mncamperguy's Photo Album My Photos
It seems to me regardless of stock thickness the profiles should still fit fully together. To me thickness would only affect how the faces line up i.e a ridge or lip where the two pieces come together.

Am I missing something?
mncamperguy is offline  
post #20 of 40 Old 06-07-2013, 02:42 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 25,995
View Steve Neul's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by mncamperguy View Post
It seems to me regardless of stock thickness the profiles should still fit fully together. To me thickness would only affect how the faces line up i.e a ridge or lip where the two pieces come together.

Am I missing something?
You are correct. The stile and rail set would determine the joint. The only question was if the rail was ran all the way against the bearing and it was. With that set you could make the stiles out of 3/4" wood and the rails out of 1 1/2" thick wood and it should go together. I have a coping and sticking set for a shaper that I ground myself years ago and after running hundreds of doors it has enough metal worn off of it it's getting in the condition the OP's set is. They just ground too much metal off one of the knives when they made the set.
Steve Neul is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Steve Neul For This Useful Post:
OnealWoodworking (06-07-2013)
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Rail and Stile bit set? ACP Power Tools & Machinery 6 09-28-2011 02:35 PM
specialty stile & rail set moriartl General Woodworking Discussion 1 01-08-2011 06:29 PM
recommendation for rail and stile bit set kjhart0133 Joinery 12 07-11-2010 03:20 PM
Rail and Stile bits daviddoria Power Tools & Machinery 8 03-11-2010 01:31 AM
Rail and Stile Bit rrbrown Tool Reviews 4 02-28-2010 01:15 AM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome