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post #21 of 51 Old 06-22-2013, 01:50 PM
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Not talking to yourself at all. I am listening! I do have a question, D you you undercut your shoulders to ensure a tight fit? I always try to go for dead nuts square but i do end up slightly undercutting, Since the shoulders are an endgrain glue up. I feel that the joint is not loosing any strength. What are your thoughts?

John,

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post #22 of 51 Old 06-22-2013, 02:41 PM Thread Starter
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Hi John,no I don't under cut the shoulders I was taught the three S`s, square,sharp,shoulders.
Thats just the way I was taught how to do it.The old Journey men that taught me had a very funny view about glue and its uses.They would say the more glue you put in a joint the more stress you put it under I intend to talk about it later,good points.

Originally I would use a shoulder plane for cleaning the shoulders but someone needed it more than me and while it was gone I just got use to using a paring chisel I have another shoulder plane but I just don't use it a lot.
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post #23 of 51 Old 06-22-2013, 08:51 PM
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My only issue is that my use of chisels reminds me of a monkey doing certain unnecessary things to a football.
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post #24 of 51 Old 06-23-2013, 07:29 AM Thread Starter
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oPINEr I`v just had a vision in my head of a monkey with a football,not a very nice thing at all.
You know some times its not the man but the tool,I can understand it when somebody getting into wood work as a hobby says "I carn`t afford to pay so much for top end tools I just don`t use them enough to justify it. I`ll sharpen them more often".

But there are some tools out there that have the consistency of green cheese try putting them near the wood and its like there was a magnet in the end of the tool and they bend away from the wood,hit them with a mallet and then end just crumbles.

Using tools like that and you will soon loose you enthusiasm for wood working as a hobby.

I look for old iron or in this case old steel there are a lot of cheap tools out there just waiting to be picked up, with chisels I look for ones with beat up handles or no handles at all a name stamped in the blade and no pitting on the face.Here are two that I made handles for just recently a 3/8" and a1/4" parring chisels a real pleasure to work with,both of them dirt cheap.

Its the same for Master Splinter and Itchytoe,what sort of saw are you using is it sharp or blunt cross cut or rip what are you trying to do with it dove tails,tenons,cut a board to length or rip it,you can not do all that with one saw.The panel saw that I use in this thread I picked up to use to make scratch stock, I cut a piece of it and was so impressed with the quality of the steel that I sharpened it.
When you strum your fingers along it your fingers stick to it,its what's called sticky sharp and sawed the tenons like it was cutting butter.If a fly was to land on it it would cut its self to death.

Just take a walk over to the hand tool forum the folks over there are very friendly and would be more than willing to help anybody with advice on where to get tools how to use them or how to fettle them.

Billy
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post #25 of 51 Old 06-23-2013, 01:49 PM Thread Starter
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Time to try the fit of mortice and tenon.(See pic)ok I`m happy with the fit I then take the tenon out and with a 1" chisel chop about a 1/8" from two sides of the mortice down to about half way down.

The tenon gets two saw cuts in it and a hole drilled at the end of the cuts and the arris taken of the edge of the tenon. I only glue the shoulders and a bit of the tenon clamp it all up an drive two wedges into each tenon and leave for the glue to set.

The old guys that taught me my trade would not glue the tenon up because they said the tenon at different times of the year would swell and shrink back and by glueing would only bring stress into the joint that would lead to the eventual failure of the joint the wedges dove tail the tenon and hold the joint in place.
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post #26 of 51 Old 06-23-2013, 02:06 PM Thread Starter
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The proud tenons and wedges are cut away and planed flush with the legs.the horns are now cut of and the top of the legs cleaned with a smoothing plane.You can now see that if the horns had not been left in place the wedges would have caused to much stress on the legs possibly causing them to split.

The legs are cut to length and the arris taken from the end.
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post #27 of 51 Old 06-23-2013, 02:55 PM Thread Starter
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So now the end frame for the work bench are finished.
I will give it a go at explaining face side, this system has been in use probably as long as man has worked wood.

If you have a number of people planing wood by hand its almost imposable to grantee that all wood will be the same thickness.

So for the sake of explanation imagine that the tenon has no thickness so you can mark it off with a gauge with just one point ,if you set the gauge to the middle of one piece of wood it could be that on the next piece of wood it will not be in the middle and you mark it from the opposite side it could be completely out of true.

To save everyone from total confusion if you mark each piece of wood with a mark that says this is the face side of the wood and all marks will be made from this side,it then stands to reason that every tenon will be the same distance from the face side so the whole of the face side will be flush and any discrepancy will be on the back of the wood.

I knew all this before I started I also knew that the back of the frame would be under the bench and of no interest to anybody.

So on the face of the frame I layed a straight edge across the work and it was flush,I then layed it across the back and you can see the difference.

So now you know what face side means.
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post #28 of 51 Old 06-23-2013, 04:50 PM Thread Starter
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So now you know what face side is and how it is used.

Step two is to explain what face edge is and how that is used.

How many times have you marked a square line around apiece of wood whether its a board or a scantline and when the marks are soposed to come together they don't,If this is the base line of a dove tail or a shoulder and you work to the line then your building gaps into the job.

The old guys knew that you need at least two sides that are straight and square to each other you already have one the face side, the back is no good it has to be one of the other two either the inside edge or the out side edge and that's why it is called the face edge.

We are dealing with ancient meanings here so for the sake of explanation I will call them side 1 and side 2 so to mark a square line we must only rest the square on sides 1 and 2 and the square must rest on what will be the job and not the cut off.

In the pics you will see to start I have rested the square on

side 2 and marked side 1 then

side 1 and marked side 2 then

side 2 and marked side 3 then

side 1 and marked side 4 then


You will notice that the square only rests on sides 1 and 2 (face side and face edge).
You can see the join and it is spot on and I like to use a knife to mark it out and work to,using this system I get a square,sharp,shoulder and that's all there is to it.


Billy
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post #29 of 51 Old 06-23-2013, 08:24 PM
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A couple of questions on the wedged tenon:

The 1/8" you are taking off the ends of the mortise - I'm assuming that is a sloped cut and not a full 1/8" taken off half the depth of the mortise?

The cuts in the tenon - is that just a single saw kerf or is it wider?

How long (approx) does the wedge extend into the tenon?

BTW - I'm really enjoying this, keep up the good work!

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post #30 of 51 Old 06-23-2013, 09:04 PM
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I just use my chain mortiser, hollow chisel mortiser and my 5 head greenlee tenoner.
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post #31 of 51 Old 06-23-2013, 09:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WarnerConstInc.
I just use my chain mortiser, hollow chisel mortiser and my 5 head greenlee tenoner.
Show off......


I'm still jealous of that chain unit

The tools don't make the craftsman....
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post #32 of 51 Old 06-23-2013, 09:34 PM
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Show off......


I'm still jealous of that chain unit
Wait until I post some pictures of the 5 head Greenlee.
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post #33 of 51 Old 06-23-2013, 09:35 PM
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Well now that you have that one, ill take the chain one off your hands. Lol.

The tools don't make the craftsman....
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post #34 of 51 Old 06-24-2013, 06:09 AM Thread Starter
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A couple of questions on the wedged tenon:

The 1/8" you are taking off the ends of the mortise - I'm assuming that is a sloped cut and not a full 1/8" taken off half the depth of the mortise?

The cuts in the tenon - is that just a single saw kerf or is it wider?

How long (approx) does the wedge extend into the tenon?

BTW - I'm really enjoying this, keep up the good work!

Tim The 1/8" is sloped you can see it in post No 25, 2nd pic.

The cut in the tenon is a single saw kerf.

How far do the wedges extend into the tenon?

Well I aim at sending the wedge no deeper than half way down,the tenon,the drilled hole is to stop any split being caused by the wedge.
This is where a bit of feeling comes into the job,I made an 1/8" gap either side of the tenon so common sense says each wedge should be 1/8" thick where I intend it to finish on the surface of the leg.

The leg is 4" thick so I want the wedges to go no deeper than a small 2",at this point on the wedge I will see that the wedge is at least a 1/4" thick because as you can see in the pics the cut off wedges are more than 1/8" thick at the cut off point.

If this was a stub tenon the wedges are placed in the tenon and then the tenon in the mortice and the job is the clamped up.The clamps force the tenon into the mortice and the mortice forces the wedges into the tenon.The mortice is also wedge shaped to allow the tenon to spread and dove tail its self into position.

If you get the wedges wrong the tenon can drive its self into the sides of the tenon and it just gets stuck and your not going to get it out that's why its sometimes called the suicide joint.

On stub and through tenons I ease the arris on the end of the tenon.
Whats the arris?In wood work and architecture when you have two flat surfaces joining this causes a sharp point this sharp point is call an arris.When you ease the arris you put a shamfer on the wood. On a through mortice this stops the tenon from busting the wood as it exits the mortice and on the stub tenon it helps to ease the tenon in when it expands.

Sorry for the long post Tim.
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post #35 of 51 Old 06-24-2013, 06:29 AM Thread Starter
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Darcy I understand that a contractor needs his machines I have a slot morticer, but there is nothing wrong with understanding the principals of the whole thing and how to understand and use reference points.

In the original post I did point out that this would be headed for someone getting into this as a hobby and to show them they did not need a shed full of machines to get it done.

BTW I have used a tenoning machine think it was a makita but it only had 4 heads if my memory serves me.Even as a contractor we have to look at machines and ask will this pay be back I wasn't to impressed with the tenoning machine.
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post #36 of 51 Old 06-24-2013, 09:25 AM
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When selecting which will be the face of the leg, any considerations re grain direction? I can imagine the leg splitting if the mortise ran along the radial lines if grain, of that makes sense.

Any additional considerations if the legs were laminated instead of solid? How bout grain issues with respect to the wedges?
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post #37 of 51 Old 06-24-2013, 10:39 AM Thread Starter
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Railaw I can see where you are coming from but no I never give any consideration to grain direction and can honestly say I`v never had a problem with this joint so long as the horn is left on when wedging the joint up.It is usual that the horns are left on purpose built joinery and only removed when being fitted.

I have see the top of a door stile that was split but this was on a haunched mortice and tenon and the door had been swung for at least 50 years.
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post #38 of 51 Old 06-24-2013, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
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Darcy I understand that a contractor needs his machines I have a slot morticer, but there is nothing wrong with understanding the principals of the whole thing and how to understand and use reference points.

In the original post I did point out that this would be headed for someone getting into this as a hobby and to show them they did not need a shed full of machines to get it done.

BTW I have used a tenoning machine think it was a makita but it only had 4 heads if my memory serves me.Even as a contractor we have to look at machines and ask will this pay be back I wasn't to impressed with the tenoning machine.

I hear you. The Greenlee 532 is impressive though. I am getting set up for window and storm sash production, along with traditional doors.
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post #39 of 51 Old 06-24-2013, 01:23 PM Thread Starter
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I hear you. The Greenlee 532 is impressive though. I am getting set up for window and storm sash production, along with traditional doors.

Cant wait for the pics

Just thinking about windows it may pay to look up mortice and tenon relish, no its not a sauce that you put on the window to eat it but the way the shoulder of the tenon is cut to allow rain water to run off and away from the joint.


The last windows I built where Euro windows two seals for water and two for wind locking in seven different places swing open and also tilt into the room,now they had me scratching my head.

Last edited by Billy De; 06-24-2013 at 01:36 PM. Reason: Additional information
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post #40 of 51 Old 06-24-2013, 02:46 PM
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A hauncher/relisher is on my list, but the old greenlee's or Americans are rare birds these days.

Don't want to start an argument, but the relish sole purpose was to clear the sticking on the styles. The rain water thing is kind of like an old wives tale.

This is a fried of mine's blog and my biggest source of help for getting my old babbitt machines purring like kittens.

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