Mechanics of breadboard - Page 5 - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
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post #81 of 87 Old 02-22-2019, 11:16 PM
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Hello ODS!!

Overall and Excellent Video!!!

Already saw it...!!!!...... as a colleague brought it to my attention when it first came out as they had been very impressed with another young woodworker actually learning the craft well and sharing what they are learning in a very unobtrusive way...



Anyone that knows anything about the Breadboard system of joinery, its history and the many different forms of it, could do nothing but admire this young Artisans work in cutting a very good example of it...

All in all...Chris did a superb job of the entire project with both...hand...and...power modalities outlined from his perspective...



Following the "pseudo" traditional methods and style he seemed to be portraying in this video...???...(aka a robust "Farm House" or "Harvest Table" top)...No...you wouldn't..."score"...the fibers.

If you recall, he was taking a block plane out in many of the shots and cutting a small chamfer on all edges. This was (and is) a very common practice especially in the folk traditions of woodworking and related modalities...

About the only things that could even come close to calling an "error" of any magnitude...technical or otherwise...(that is significant...particularity noteworthy) in the video would be:

He mistakenly called a "#4 Smoothing Plane" a "Scrub Plane," and he called a large "Firmer Chisel" a "Slick,"...other than that...I did catch anything terribly glaring that was incorrect per se...

>>>



I know that house very well Larry!!!

My Great Uncle Vern, whom I lived with as a child for a spell, actually was born in 1885 and studied under them before become an Architect himself...

Many of Charles's and Henry's "turnkey design" projects included everything from the house itself... all the way to curtains, hardware, tile and furniture too!!!

I do believe (???...80%) the linked drawing is a modern interpretation, and not an original. It has issue with hardware draw-out as it is attached to end-grain (more on that if you want it?) and not enough room for movement unless built with quarter sawn lumber...

The originals, designed by the Brothers, but built by a pair of Swiss (?) brothers and Master Craftsmen, was built almost identical to the one in the video...but it did have the exact embellishments that we see in the drawing to counter act exactly what...can be...an issue for many aesthetically...

Great that you shared that aesthetic "fix!"

>>>



I can share that the oldest I have seen...500 plus years...was built almost identical to the one in the video......It's still in good shape, and was built (by all indications) of green riven White Oak...

It clearly illustrates exactly why many (not all) modern ones have such issues, which is undersized joinery...no tenons only a spline or "tongue" ..no proper draw boaring...

You lost me on the "1/16th gap on the inside" and the "5/16th on the outside"...???...I kept thinking you meant that amount of play around the tenon in the mortise...but that can't be it???

>>>



Number one is very true in "folk style" as the table top boards (aka diaphram field) are often not glued together at all, but only splined, toggled, or trunneled...with some very old versions only butted together...The Breadboard keeps the assembly intact and functional over time and heavy use.

Number two is also a primary reason, though most original forms are built from green wood and are riven so the grain pattern is naturally in the "rift" form...Cupping is virtually nonexistent, and other than initial moisture loss movement is a very stable way to create durable furniture...



If I may respectfully......that will have to be only an opinion since most of the Breadboards I have every built with (not restored those cover the spectrum) are made with green riven wood...and...sometimes even just "junk" wood like the last one I did for a huge island in a kitchen. They seldom cup or to no significant degree of note...

That assembly was built...literally with pallet and fire wood scrap green lumber...and the Breadboards only "friction fitted" to facilitate disassembly in a few months (which I haven't done yet) to clean up any gaping, or misbehave...I have had virtually no "cupping" at all. I will try and get to the clients house to take photos (I'm bad for that and my clients are very private typically.) When I do service it, I will post the info here on the forum...



They actually do a really good job, but must be longer than many are...typically follow the "rule of thirds" in diameter...and...are done down the length of the plank. This is also a very common way to "float floors" in traditional Nordic and Eastern European folk architecture...

The breadboard in this case is added insurance/strengthening and also protects the end-grain of the plank from exposure...



You kind of lost me on this one...but I did get a fleeting image in my head of a Chinese version of these that are very similar in description...and...I have built a very "industrial" version of a table with a wrought iron "capping" that formed the breadboard. I've also seen a few revisions similar with both steel spline and dovetail both
What I was saying is the mortise would have to be wider than the tenon or it wouldn't allow for shrinkage. With that table that would be worse than not elongating the dowel holes on the full tenon breadboard end. At least a dowel might crush some before it would split the table top.
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post #82 of 87 Old 02-22-2019, 11:36 PM
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Where I live the humidity level is rarely below 60%. The moisture content of wood is hard to figure. I brought in a cabinet I made a long time ago from a barn on my place that has a dirt floor. The cabinet when I brought it in was made out of unfinished solid walnut and the moisture content was 16.7%. The back had raised panels on it and I apparently didn't allow enough for that kind of moisture content as it pushed the frame apart a little. The building I put it in has had a dehumidifier in it for a couple weeks and the humidity level is 45% even though it's been raining every day. In 24 hours the moisture content of the wood dropped to 7.1% and panels rattle now.
LOL !!! talking about moisture swelling wood. My next project (IF/WHEN we get to finish due to all this heavy "dew" falling ) We are rebuilding a 80 ' deck framing that was pushed 2" out both ways (40'& 40') from the center because the original builder left 0" gap/tolerence between the wood T&G floor/decking and it was a lower MC at install time....DONE some damage!!!! Once all the framework is done ,we're installing a 2 styles of products by Nexan Decking, one being open slot/gap aluminum powder coated decking and over a covered area they have a dry style for protecting the under area....NICE products!!!

Have a Blessed and Prosperous day in Jesus's Awesome Love, Tim
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post #83 of 87 Old 02-23-2019, 08:55 AM
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LOL !!! talking about moisture swelling wood. My next project (IF/WHEN we get to finish due to all this heavy "dew" falling ) We are rebuilding a 80 ' deck framing that was pushed 2" out both ways (40'& 40') from the center because the original builder left 0" gap/tolerence between the wood T&G floor/decking and it was a lower MC at install time....DONE some damage!!!! Once all the framework is done ,we're installing a 2 styles of products by Nexan Decking, one being open slot/gap aluminum powder coated decking and over a covered area they have a dry style for protecting the under area....NICE products!!!
I wonder how hot the Nexan decking gets in summer. I've seen Trex decking get so hot here you couldn't stand to walk across it with shoes on.

Myself, when ever I do a deck I use pressure treated pine. The 5/4 gets pretty pricy so I buy ground contact rated 2x6's and surface one side to make them smooth. Using treated wood you best not leave a gap between the boards. The wood being still wet from the factory some will soon shrink making gaps. I normally purchase the wood a month prior to doing the job and stack and sticker the wood and allow it to at least dry a little before using it. It also gives you a chance to see which boards are going to warp.
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post #84 of 87 Old 02-23-2019, 09:46 AM
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Would you guys take a look at this video and tell me what you think. I thought the Mechanics of the Breadboard, which is what this thread is titled, were very informative. I thought he did good job coming from a novice trying to learn this process.

I will say that at 11:35 in the video he doesn't show cutting the fibers on the bottom of the table while he flush cuts the end. Wouldn't you want to do this. Please let me know what you think.

SERIOUS Breadboard Ends!! Hand Tools vs Power Tools! Woodworking // How To // DIY - YouTube
OudoorSeeker, I presume he used the same methods on both the top and bottom. I wanted to say, this is an excellent video, in both narration and illustration. I think following his methods would produce an extremely strong and long lasting breadboard on a table of that size. Years ago I purchased a Rockwell morticing attachment for my delta drill press, and although it works well, I resized it in some cases will not drill deep enough. After watching many of Paul Sellers videos on you tube, I have used chisels to produce accurate mortices, using his methods quicker. I find using traditional hand tool methods more relaxing without the noise of machines, which often are distracting. I liked the video you linked, because it shows both sides of the fence...both power and hand tools to achieve the same results.
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post #85 of 87 Old 02-23-2019, 10:18 AM
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I wonder how hot the Nexan decking gets in summer. I've seen Trex decking get so hot here you couldn't stand to walk across it with shoes on.

Myself, when ever I do a deck I use pressure treated pine. The 5/4 gets pretty pricy so I buy ground contact rated 2x6's and surface one side to make them smooth. Using treated wood you best not leave a gap between the boards. The wood being still wet from the factory some will soon shrink making gaps. I normally purchase the wood a month prior to doing the job and stack and sticker the wood and allow it to at least dry a little before using it. It also gives you a chance to see which boards are going to warp.
Nexan 's website has the heat transfer videos comparing all 3 wood, trex, nexan/aluminum.

I've seen some pretty decks with the "trex" style products BUT I'm not a fan or promote it to my clients. I see more long term issues with it and mostly involves the eventual sway between the joists over time.

I learned to layout 5/4 on 5 3/4" centers regardless whether it touches or not, once it's all finished drying you have a consistant gap pattern which is needed for air flow/drying..

Have a Blessed and Prosperous day in Jesus's Awesome Love, Tim
........www.TSMFarms.com.......... John 3:16-21 ..........
Reveling God's awesome beauty while creating one of-a-kind flitches and heirlooms.
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post #86 of 87 Old 02-23-2019, 11:52 AM
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I find using traditional hand tool methods more relaxing without the noise of machines, which often are distracting.
I am starting to see that in watching some of these videos. I don’t have much of a hand tool supply but will be buying more as I go.

There is a lot of good videos out there but I thought his to be one of the best.
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post #87 of 87 Old 02-23-2019, 11:53 AM
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Nexan 's website has the heat transfer videos comparing all 3 wood, trex, nexan/aluminum.

I've seen some pretty decks with the "trex" style products BUT I'm not a fan or promote it to my clients. I see more long term issues with it and mostly involves the eventual sway between the joists over time.

I learned to layout 5/4 on 5 3/4" centers regardless whether it touches or not, once it's all finished drying you have a consistant gap pattern which is needed for air flow/drying..
I've had to replace Trex before for wood on a deck largely because it was dipping about 1/8" between 16" centers. It may just be the intense heat here but I don't recommend it either. This deck was away from the house where there were no trees so it got full sun all day. It not only sagged between joists the color was pretty faded. I don't know of a product a person could use to restore the color but I haven't looked either since I don't work with it much.

Most of the decks I do the framing is almost sitting on the ground. I try not to leave any more space between the boards as I can help because people tend to drop things through the cracks and can't get under the deck to retrieve it. I've had to go back to a customers house and remove some boards to find a ring that was dropped.
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