Mechanics of breadboard - Page 4 - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
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post #61 of 87 Old 02-21-2019, 12:22 PM
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Reminder for all of us...

When we disagree...
https://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f33/...sagree-198506/
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post #62 of 87 Old 02-21-2019, 01:54 PM
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I appreciate the time and wisdom everyone has invested here as well. From all sides. I have gained more respect for the skills of great woodworking here.
This thread has grilled me to search out the history of woodworking a little more. I hope I can harness it all when I go to make a major build at home.
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post #63 of 87 Old 02-21-2019, 05:20 PM
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I have an 18" x 3/8" drill bit. I use ready rod to bolt the glue-up together.
I add nice edge caps and I'm done for keeps.
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post #64 of 87 Old 02-22-2019, 12:25 AM
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I agree, this whole thing is idiotic. It's about a system that has been used by countless people and furniture manufacturers for a very long time.
Thanks to all for at least following along and I am more than pleased that some have taken away from this conversation the important parts...

Steve, I can more than agree with..."has been used by countless people and furniture manufactures for a very long time." As to the "whole thing is idiotic" only if folks didn't learn something......about the correct and incorrect ways of doing it...There is so much more to this system of joinery and strengthening that we haven't even begun to get into...yet...
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post #65 of 87 Old 02-22-2019, 01:54 PM
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Would you guys take a look at this video and tell me what you think. I thought the Mechanics of the Breadboard, which is what this thread is titled, were very informative. I thought he did good job coming from a novice trying to learn this process.

I will say that at 11:35 in the video he doesn't show cutting the fibers on the bottom of the table while he flush cuts the end. Wouldn't you want to do this. Please let me know what you think.


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post #66 of 87 Old 02-22-2019, 02:12 PM
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Sorry, it is asking a bit much to watch a 17 minute video about a dead horse, perhaps others will and comment on it.

Wise men speak because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something -Plato

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post #67 of 87 Old 02-22-2019, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by OutdoorSeeker View Post
Would you guys take a look at this video and tell me what you think. I thought the Mechanics of the Breadboard, which is what this thread is titled, were very informative. I thought he did good job coming from a novice trying to learn this process.

I will say that at 11:35 in the video he doesn't show cutting the fibers on the bottom of the table while he flush cuts the end. Wouldn't you want to do this. Please let me know what you think.

SERIOUS Breadboard Ends!! Hand Tools vs Power Tools! Woodworking // How To // DIY - YouTube
The video leaves out some of it. From what I can see I don't care for that method. He cuts individual deep tenons for the breadboard but doesn't show the mortise for it. If there isn't sufficient room for movement it can cause the top to split. I've seen tables the center of the table has shrunk 5/8" in width so if you don't allow for that much movement you are asking for it. I think it would have been better off with larger tenons and fewer of them so you could allow enough space in the mortise for the movement. I would make the mortise 3/8" wider than the tenon and leave a sixteenth gap on the inside and 5/16" on the outside.
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post #68 of 87 Old 02-22-2019, 03:01 PM
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Sorry, it is asking a bit much to watch a 17 minute video about a dead horse, perhaps others will and comment on it.
I respect that Frank. You have to realize that I didn’t or don’t have skills being handed down to me from family. I strickley have a desire to craft things of wood and be presise about it.

I am a studier on these sorts of things and am trying to educate myself through asking. I have milled up hickory trees from my property to make a nice kitchen island top. I’m not against trial and error, but with this specific piece I have one shot at it.
Not trying to beat that horse and I can see how this probably bores the experienced craftsman
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Last edited by difalkner; 02-22-2019 at 08:17 PM. Reason: fixed quote
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post #69 of 87 Old 02-22-2019, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by OutdoorSeeker View Post
quote=FrankC;2039891]Sorry, it is asking a bit much to watch a 17 minute video about a dead horse, perhaps others will and comment on it.
I respect that Frank. You have to realize that I didnít or donít have skills being handed down to me from family. I strickley have a desire to craft things of wood and be presise about it.

I am a studier on these sorts of things and am trying to educate myself through asking. I have milled up hickory trees from my property to make a nice kitchen island top. Iím not against trial and error, but with this specific piece I have one shot at it.
Not trying to beat that horse and I can see how this probably bores the experienced craftsman[/QUOTE]

I can appreciate that, and admire your quest for knowledge, good luck with your project.

Wise men speak because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something -Plato

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post #70 of 87 Old 02-22-2019, 05:03 PM
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Wood moves with changes in moisture, always. Cupping can be eliminated or greatly reduced through the use of quarter sawing. But quarter sawing will not eliminate expansion/contraction. I've only seen one elegant solution to bread boarding tables. A Greene & Greene design that incorporates an ebony spline. It's function is to eliminate the crude looking, inevitable offset between the breadboard end and the body of the top. It does not eliminate the likely movement it just renders it into part of the design. https://s26462.pcdn.co/wp-content/up...5F00_FigC1.jpg

Greene & Greene were truly masters of designing in wood. If you are ever in Pasadena, CA be sure to tour the Gamble house.
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post #71 of 87 Old 02-22-2019, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Larry42 View Post
Wood moves with changes in moisture, always. Cupping can be eliminated or greatly reduced through the use of quarter sawing. But quarter sawing will not eliminate expansion/contraction. I've only seen one elegant solution to bread boarding tables. A Greene & Greene design that incorporates an ebony spline. It's function is to eliminate the crude looking, inevitable offset between the breadboard end and the body of the top. It does not eliminate the likely movement it just renders it into part of the design. https://s26462.pcdn.co/wp-content/up...5F00_FigC1.jpg

Greene & Greene were truly masters of designing in wood. If you are ever in Pasadena, CA be sure to tour the Gamble house.
It says in the illustration that the spline is glued in a shallow groove. Do you know how much of the spline is glued to the top. I would think unless it was only glued in the center the spline would cause some wood movement problems.
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post #72 of 87 Old 02-22-2019, 06:53 PM
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Look at the illustration again. They are talking about the ebony spline, follow the arrow.... The grain of the ebony and the top run in the same direction.
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post #73 of 87 Old 02-22-2019, 07:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OutdoorSeeker View Post
quote=FrankC;2039891]Sorry, it is asking a bit much to watch a 17 minute video about a dead horse, perhaps others will and comment on it.
I respect that Frank. You have to realize that I didn’t or don’t have skills being handed down to me from family. I strickley have a desire to craft things of wood and be presise about it.

I am a studier on these sorts of things and am trying to educate myself through asking. I have milled up hickory trees from my property to make a nice kitchen island top. I’m not against trial and error, but with this specific piece I have one shot at it.
Not trying to beat that horse and I can see how this probably bores the experienced craftsman[/QUOTE] OutdoorSeeker
.................................................. .................................................. ..............................



I'm PROUD to see you see the difference AND have a great desire to learn.....I don't watch many of the youtubes due to most are longer than the time I have to watch their other than point of video.....BUT Idid take the time to watch this one for you up to the power tool part (nothing wrong with doing by power tools, I just didn't need the info) BUT GATHERED the info Steve didn't.....get.

At around 6:22 and 9:54 he discusses the extra plays needed with mortises and none in the center one.....somewhere in that frame he also elaborates on drawboring and it's IMPORTANCE along with the slight elongating of the holes. I liked the shamfering also as to me it's a elegant touch.

Sorry I didn't make it to 11:35 BUT it couldlve been a typo/videoyo and wasn't addressed as he did do it on the top in the hand tool part.

THIS in my opinion and the older studies I've seen is the correct way and not the fast way that is weak as Steves illustration shows.

I'm thrilled to see others have taken some time to dig a little deeper also into the importance of doing this technique correctly and the reasoning/history behind the process. Our old techniques have gotten muddled in time/ages over speed/time/profits which is now sadly showing up in how long something doesn't last, which went from milliniums, down to centuries, down to decades, down to 5 years, I actually had a replaced OEM HVAC fan go out in 1 yr 3mths and I have no option BUT to buy the OEM part that only lasted 3 months past the 1 yr parts warranty.

Maybe no typos...LOL!!!!
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post #74 of 87 Old 02-22-2019, 07:02 PM
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The purpose of a breadboard end is ......

My understanding is that a breadboard end will do, or is supposed to do, two things:


1. It will keep the ends of the planks from shifting vertically creating slight offsets across the width.


2. It is supposed to keep the planks from cupping, a natural phenomenon from shrinkage/drying depending on the specific slice of the tree where the planks was sourced, a quartersawn board being the least likely to cup.


It's my opinion, that if a board is going to cup, a breadboard end may not prevent it. I don't have first hand experience with them on any project I've made, so I'm far from an expert.


As far as preventing the planks from shifting, I would try using dowels running crosswise, near the very ends. They won't affect any wood movement across the width, so no issues there. No issues along the length either.


Another approach which I've never used myself, would be to inset a steel or aluminum bar that's 1/3 the total thickness of the planks into a stopped mortise on the ends. A wood "T" section could be set into it as well to cap off the end grain. The whole issue of how to make them properly has me turned off as well as confused. I don't think they are worth the trouble for me.

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)

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post #75 of 87 Old 02-22-2019, 07:42 PM
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My understanding is that a breadboard end will do two things:


1. It will keep the ends of the planks from shifting vertically creating slight offsets across the width.


2. It is supposed to keep the planks from cupping, a natural phenomenon from shrinkage/drying depending on the specific slice of the tree where the planks was sourced, a quartersawn board being the least likely to cup.


It's my opinion, that if a board is going to cup, a breadboard end may not prevent it. I don't have first hand experience with them on any project I've made, so I'm far from an expert.


As far as preventing the planks from shifting, I would try using dowels running crosswise, near the very ends. They won't affect any wood movement across the width, so no issues there. No issues along the length either.


Another approach which I've never used myself, would be to inset a steel or aluminum bar that's 1/3 the total thickness of the planks into a stopped mortise on the ends. A wood "T" section could be set into it as well to cap off the end grain. The whole issue of how to make them properly has me turned off as well as confused. I don't think they are worth the trouble for me.
There were a few tables with breadboard ends that passed through my shop that had a cup warp which bowed the breadboard ends. These tables the tops were only 3/4" thick. A thicker top the breadboard end I would think would have more influence.
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post #76 of 87 Old 02-22-2019, 07:59 PM
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There were a few tables with breadboard ends that passed through my shop that had a cup warp which bowed the breadboard ends. These tables the tops were only 3/4" thick. A thicker top the breadboard end I would think would have more influence.
That's your SIGN/RED FLAG something else is wrong or NOT done correctly....my first guess would be why did they only finish one side/top or my second being something glued/anchored crossgrained TOO tight....ABSOLUTE NOTHING to do with the function of the breadboard THAT has to do with incorrect techniques and (im)proper joinery. Kinda like saying all tires are wrong/incorrect to use because some don't inflate them correctly.....NOT the tire's fault or purpose!!!

Food for thought !!!!

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post #77 of 87 Old 02-22-2019, 08:13 PM
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That's your SIGN/RED FLAG something else is wrong or NOT done correctly....my first guess would be why did they only finish one side/top or my second being something glued/anchored crossgrained TOO tight....ABSOLUTE NOTHING to do with the function of the breadboard THAT has to do with incorrect techniques and (im)proper joinery. Kinda like saying all tires are wrong/incorrect to use because some don't inflate them correctly.....NOT the tire's fault or purpose!!!

Food for thought !!!!
It's been too many years since I saw the tables to say whether or not the table tops were finished on both sides. I do remember they were cupped in both directions though. If all of them was crowned on the underside I would also assume the underside was unfinished and caused the problem. Woodenthings just made comment that he thought the breadboard end would bow if the table top did and I just noted that I've seen it happen.
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post #78 of 87 Old 02-22-2019, 10:13 PM
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It's been too many years since I saw the tables to say whether or not the table tops were finished on both sides. I do remember they were cupped in both directions though. If all of them was crowned on the underside I would also assume the underside was unfinished and caused the problem. Woodenthings just made comment that he thought the breadboard end would bow if the table top did and I just noted that I've seen it happen.
LOL !!!!....That reminded me back in my beginnings 36 yrs ago I built a trestle table and done the ultimate NO-NO of glueing cross grain...I built in the middle of the RH/ MC of where the table would be placed ....WINTER it would cup and SUMMER it would bow. The same happens with one side finished one or the other side gains or loses faster than the finished side, so we have to remember the direction only has to do with plus or minus of the other's MC...normally we see the finished side draw/cup only due to moisture increases into the unfinished wood faster then it reescapes....BUT that also depends on your standard average humidity, as in Texas being drier (I think) you'd see more bowing probably. I believe I read somewhere as a whole (USA) the average is 12% MC???? BUT that is average and subject to individual locations. I'm 12-13% here but my friend 3 hrs away in the mountians is considered tropical rain forest climate, that's got to be damp!!!

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post #79 of 87 Old 02-22-2019, 11:06 PM
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LOL !!!!....That reminded me back in my beginnings 36 yrs ago I built a trestle table and done the ultimate NO-NO of glueing cross grain...I built in the middle of the RH/ MC of where the table would be placed ....WINTER it would cup and SUMMER it would bow. The same happens with one side finished one or the other side gains or loses faster than the finished side, so we have to remember the direction only has to do with plus or minus of the other's MC...normally we see the finished side draw/cup only due to moisture increases into the unfinished wood faster then it reescapes....BUT that also depends on your standard average humidity, as in Texas being drier (I think) you'd see more bowing probably. I believe I read somewhere as a whole (USA) the average is 12% MC???? BUT that is average and subject to individual locations. I'm 12-13% here but my friend 3 hrs away in the mountians is considered tropical rain forest climate, that's got to be damp!!!
Where I live the humidity level is rarely below 60%. The moisture content of wood is hard to figure. I brought in a cabinet I made a long time ago from a barn on my place that has a dirt floor. The cabinet when I brought it in was made out of unfinished solid walnut and the moisture content was 16.7%. The back had raised panels on it and I apparently didn't allow enough for that kind of moisture content as it pushed the frame apart a little. The building I put it in has had a dehumidifier in it for a couple weeks and the humidity level is 45% even though it's been raining every day. In 24 hours the moisture content of the wood dropped to 7.1% and panels rattle now.
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post #80 of 87 Old 02-22-2019, 11:44 PM
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...Would you guys take a look at this video and tell me what you think...
Hello ODS!!

Overall and Excellent Video!!!

Already saw it...!!!!...... as a colleague brought it to my attention when it first came out as they had been very impressed with another young woodworker actually learning the craft well and sharing what they are learning in a very unobtrusive way...

Quote:
Originally Posted by OutdoorSeeker View Post
... I thought the Mechanics of the Breadboard, which is what this thread is titled, were very informative. I thought he did good job coming from a novice trying to learn this process. ...
Anyone that knows anything about the Breadboard system of joinery, its history and the many different forms of it, could do nothing but admire this young Artisans work in cutting a very good example of it...

All in all...Chris did a superb job of the entire project with both...hand...and...power modalities outlined from his perspective...

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...I will say that at 11:35 in the video he doesn't show cutting the fibers on the bottom of the table while he flush cuts the end. Wouldn't you want to do this. Please let me know what you think...
Following the "pseudo" traditional methods and style he seemed to be portraying in this video...???...(aka a robust "Farm House" or "Harvest Table" top)...No...you wouldn't..."score"...the fibers.

If you recall, he was taking a block plane out in many of the shots and cutting a small chamfer on all edges. This was (and is) a very common practice especially in the folk traditions of woodworking and related modalities...

About the only things that could even come close to calling an "error" of any magnitude...technical or otherwise...(that is significant...particularity noteworthy) in the video would be:

He mistakenly called a "#4 Smoothing Plane" a "Scrub Plane," and he called a large "Firmer Chisel" a "Slick,"...other than that...I did catch anything terribly glaring that was incorrect per se...

>>>

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...Greene & Greene were truly masters of designing in wood. If you are ever in Pasadena, CA be sure to tour the Gamble house.
I know that house very well Larry!!!

My Great Uncle Vern, whom I lived with as a child for a spell, actually was born in 1885 and studied under them before become an Architect himself...

Many of Charles's and Henry's "turnkey design" projects included everything from the house itself... all the way to curtains, hardware, tile and furniture too!!!

I do believe (???...80%) the linked drawing is a modern interpretation, and not an original. It has issue with hardware draw-out as it is attached to end-grain (more on that if you want it?) and not enough room for movement unless built with quarter sawn lumber...

The originals, designed by the Brothers, but built by a pair of Swiss (?) brothers and Master Craftsmen, was built almost identical to the one in the video...but it did have the exact embellishments that we see in the drawing to counter act exactly what...can be...an issue for many aesthetically...

Great that you shared that aesthetic "fix!"

>>>

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...I think it would have been better off with larger tenons and fewer of them so you could allow enough space in the mortise for the movement. I would make the mortise 3/8" wider than the tenon and leave a sixteenth gap on the inside and 5/16" on the outside...
I can share that the oldest I have seen...500 plus years...was built almost identical to the one in the video......It's still in good shape, and was built (by all indications) of green riven White Oak...

It clearly illustrates exactly why many (not all) modern ones have such issues, which is undersized joinery...no tenons only a spline or "tongue" ..no proper draw boaring...

You lost me on the "1/16th gap on the inside" and the "5/16th on the outside"...???...I kept thinking you meant that amount of play around the tenon in the mortise...but that can't be it???

>>>

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Originally Posted by woodnthings View Post
...My understanding is that a breadboard end will do, or is supposed to do, two things:
1. It will keep the ends of the planks from shifting vertically creating slight offsets across the width.
2. It is supposed to keep the planks from cupping, a natural phenomenon from shrinkage/drying depending on the specific slice of the tree where the planks was sourced, a quartersawn board being the least likely to cup.
Number one is very true in "folk style" as the table top boards (aka diaphram field) are often not glued together at all, but only splined, toggled, or trunneled...with some very old versions only butted together...The Breadboard keeps the assembly intact and functional over time and heavy use.

Number two is also a primary reason, though most original forms are built from green wood and are riven so the grain pattern is naturally in the "rift" form...Cupping is virtually nonexistent, and other than initial moisture loss movement is a very stable way to create durable furniture...

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...It's my opinion, that if a board is going to cup, a breadboard end may not prevent it. I don't have first hand experience with them on any project I've made, so I'm far from an expert.
If I may respectfully......that will have to be only an opinion since most of the Breadboards I have every built with (not restored those cover the spectrum) are made with green riven wood...and...sometimes even just "junk" wood like the last one I did for a huge island in a kitchen. They seldom cup or to no significant degree of note...

That assembly was built...literally with pallet and fire wood scrap green lumber...and the Breadboards only "friction fitted" to facilitate disassembly in a few months (which I haven't done yet) to clean up any gaping, or misbehave...I have had virtually no "cupping" at all. I will try and get to the clients house to take photos (I'm bad for that and my clients are very private typically.) When I do service it, I will post the info here on the forum...

Quote:
Originally Posted by woodnthings View Post
...As far as preventing the planks from shifting, I would try using dowels running crosswise, near the very ends. They won't affect any wood movement across the width, so no issues there. No issues along the length either.
They actually do a really good job, but must be longer than many are...typically follow the "rule of thirds" in diameter...and...are done down the length of the plank. This is also a very common way to "float floors" in traditional Nordic and Eastern European folk architecture...

The breadboard in this case is added insurance/strengthening and also protects the end-grain of the plank from exposure...

Quote:
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...Another approach which I've never used myself, would be to inset a steel or aluminum bar that's 1/3 the total thickness of the planks into a stopped mortise on the ends. A wood "T" section could be set into it as well to cap off the end grain. The whole issue of how to make them properly has me turned off as well as confused. I don't think they are worth the trouble for me.
You kind of lost me on this one...but I did get a fleeting image in my head of a Chinese version of these that are very similar in description...and...I have built a very "industrial" version of a table with a wrought iron "capping" that formed the breadboard. I've also seen a few revisions similar with both steel spline and dovetail both
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