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post #41 of 87 Old 02-19-2019, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
You have to take into consideration these guys here for the most part are not building a thick medieval top where there is going to be enough room for a wedge in it. The tops these guys are making are much thinner and only room for dowels like what is shown in the illustration.
Steve, we're here (all as a whole) to teach things correctly....it doesn't matter per thickness as that is actually all ratios per thickness NOT do it anyway you can to sell per thinness.

The newbies rely on what we say and teach as they're seeking insite/knowledge....IF we teach them halfway info, then when they teach it they may halfway again OR better yet, NOT pass the info on BECAUSE it didn't work correctly for them....we have enough goof-tube info out there now.....DON'T misunderstand, you tube also has a few great and correct info also, BUT IF WE don't give a person enough correct info they get caught up in the other trash that ruins it for the true trade. So instead of trashing a style/technique we need to explain/study why something failed and explain the correct procedure. I can show explain the many weaknesses in the illustration you gave and the few good points BUT to say it's all bad or all good is incorrect....it is a simplified tenon/breadboard for faster manufacturing/building....YES it will work BUT NOT for many years of correct service. We've (as a whole world) tried to simplify EVERYTHING and it's only created large profits AND a "throw away" world/manufactures.

OFF my box!!!!
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post #42 of 87 Old 02-19-2019, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Tennessee Tim View Post
Steve, we're here (all as a whole) to teach things correctly....it doesn't matter per thickness as that is actually all ratios per thickness NOT do it anyway you can to sell per thinness.

The newbies rely on what we say and teach as they're seeking insite/knowledge....IF we teach them halfway info, then when they teach it they may halfway again OR better yet, NOT pass the info on BECAUSE it didn't work correctly for them....we have enough goof-tube info out there now.....DON'T misunderstand, you tube also has a few great and correct info also, BUT IF WE don't give a person enough correct info they get caught up in the other trash that ruins it for the true trade. So instead of trashing a style/technique we need to explain/study why something failed and explain the correct procedure. I can show explain the many weaknesses in the illustration you gave and the few good points BUT to say it's all bad or all good is incorrect....it is a simplified tenon/breadboard for faster manufacturing/building....YES it will work BUT NOT for many years of correct service. We've (as a whole world) tried to simplify EVERYTHING and it's only created large profits AND a "throw away" world/manufactures.

OFF my box!!!!
I understand the procedure of what you are saying but neither of you have shown anything. How is anyone going to benefit from the two of you arguing against a proven simple method that will work. Personally I think the breadboard end is something that shouldn't be done at all. It does very little to prevent a top from warping and creates more problems as it ages like people snagging their clothing walking past a breadboard end sticking out from the table. I have had that complaint from old furniture more than once. At the very least it keeps the repair shops busy grinding the ends off the breadboard ends as the top shrinks. A better method on tables with a skirt would be to screw a supporting cross member underneath the top hidden by the skirt. This would do more to hold the top flat and would be where wood movement wouldn't cause problems.
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post #43 of 87 Old 02-19-2019, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
I understand the procedure of what you are saying but neither of you have shown anything. How is anyone going to benefit from the two of you arguing against a proven simple method that will work. Personally I think the breadboard end is something that shouldn't be done at all. It does very little to prevent a top from warping and creates more problems as it ages like people snagging their clothing walking past a breadboard end sticking out from the table. I have had that complaint from old furniture more than once. At the very least it keeps the repair shops busy grinding the ends off the breadboard ends as the top shrinks. A better method on tables with a skirt would be to screw a supporting cross member underneath the top hidden by the skirt. This would do more to hold the top flat and would be where wood movement wouldn't cause problems.
You need to READ what I said...."....it will work BUT it's not correct...". ....CORRECT is the key WORD !!! THAT'S why they have the issues. NOW you're saying the method will work BUT YOU also stated they don't in the same paragraph....hmmm

As we say in the hills..... decide how your gonna straddle the fence, it will eventually cut them off!!!
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post #44 of 87 Old 02-19-2019, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Tennessee Tim View Post
You need to READ what I said...."....it will work BUT it's not correct...". ....CORRECT is the key WORD !!! THAT'S why they have the issues. NOW you're saying the method will work BUT YOU also stated they don't in the same paragraph....hmmm

As we say in the hills..... decide how your gonna straddle the fence, it will eventually cut them off!!!
That statement is subjective. There are many different procedures in woodworking which none is right or wrong, just different.

"NOW you're saying the method will work BUT YOU also stated they don't in the same paragraph". Regardless of what any of us say or think here people are going to put a breadboard ends on tables as a design thing. All I'm saying is there isn't a functional reason for using them and I was merely pointing out the down side of using them and giving an alternative. Having had an antique repair shop for a number of years I was able to see the down side to a lot of common woodworking procedures still in use today.
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post #45 of 87 Old 02-19-2019, 11:08 PM
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...I'm wasn't having that many tables come through my shop for repair, they were there for refinishing. I was just noting the construction method....There was an antique dealer near me that was buying containers of used furniture from Europe and selling them as antiques here...
Bad examples of any joinery system...is just that..."BAD EXAMPLES!"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
You have to take into consideration these guys here for the most part are not building a thick medieval top where there is going to be enough room for a wedge in it. The tops these guys are making are much thinner and only room for dowels like what is shown in the illustration.
Sorry Steve...

That has no real bearing at all on the topic of Bread Board Ends nor the joinery that goes with them...

I have done these (and related methods) in green and dry wood both...

From cross sections as large as 300mm (~12") plus with huge trunnel/peg for floated bridge decking...all the way down to tiny "keepsake boxes"..."draw pinned"...with Hawthorn spikes, cactus thorn, Honey Locust or related esoteric tiny joinery pegs applicable to "slide joinery"...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
...I understand the procedure of what you are saying but neither of you have shown anything...
In a very limited way...???...Yes I would agree you do "understand the procedures."

However, the issue is the "debate" you always seem to want to enter into with folks as if there is "equal value" in your opinion on the topic...???...I would respectfully offer that you do not always have equality in your understanding of a subject. It can (and does) often only confuse conversations like this one by you "trying" to interject a "view point" about something that you clearly are making...incorrect statements about based on understanding that is either out of context and/or pf a limited in nature...

I don't comment on many subjects here on the forum because they are about woodworking methods outside my expertise and/or field of interest...OR...I offer a little and if someone wants more of what...I do actually know...I will give it then...AND ONLY THEN!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
...How is anyone going to benefit from the two of you arguing against a proven simple method that will work...
Respectfully Steve...!!???

It isn't the "two of" anyone...Its you and your incessant compulsion to post comments even if the information you present is either inaccurate and/or out of context...or...of a very narrow scope...

Then (as you are in this post thread) needing to debate it to prove...???...I don't know what...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
...Personally I think the breadboard end is something that shouldn't be done at all. It does very little to prevent a top from warping and creates more problems as it ages like people snagging their clothing walking past a breadboard end sticking out from the table...
You have stated often on posts about this topic that you don't like Bread Board Ends...I don't understand why its emportant to do that each time and offer the same false assumptions and narrow perspectives of the topic?

Frankly Steve, what you like...and don't like...isn't often helpful to an OP trying to get advise on a subject that...THEY WANT TO KNOW ABOUT...whether you like the subject (or method) is irrelevant and extraneous...

I don't like "plastic finishes" but if a forum member is seeking advise about them I do one of two things:

1. I don't comment...

or

2. I give the best information, in context to there wants, goals and needs to address the topic...since "my likes" have no bearing to an OP topic of such a nature...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
...I have had that complaint from old furniture more than once. At the very least it keeps the repair shops busy grinding the ends off the breadboard ends as the top shrinks. A better method on tables with a skirt would be to screw a supporting cross member underneath the top hidden by the skirt. This would do more to hold the top flat and would be where wood movement wouldn't cause problems.
Again, You haven't describe any actual "old furniture" yet that I know of, nor presented photos of your work on them, or that of colleagues...

Old is not post World War II as that would be considered contemporary furniture...

Old is 300 to 1000 years...That's old and that is the context I am often referencing for posters requesting information regarding this topic...

BECAUSE...the methods, in good practice of fine woodworking, has not changed since then for many of these means, methods and materials!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
...That statement is subjective. There are many different procedures in woodworking which none is right or wrong, just different.
I do not believe it is going to be productive to debate what you "think" is subjective...Believe as you wish for the work you do...

I can..very concisely...state that there is clearly "right and wrong" methods in woodworking...and not just..."different procedures."...that is simply an inaccurate comment...

Many modalities are also much better than others...Within the context of there different applications...Bread Boards Ends...WHEN DONE WELL AND PROPERLY...are applicable and often superior to other methods...and/or integral added measures of strengthening and stability for the long-term function of the piece...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
...All I'm saying is there isn't a functional reason for using them and I was merely pointing out the down side of using them and giving an alternative. Having had an antique repair shop for a number of years I was able to see the down side to a lot of common woodworking procedures still in use today.
In this conversation you have reference "post World War II" and at no time here, or in any other conversation I have read posted by you, ever clearly reference an exact circa date for a piece containing a Bread Board End on a from the 18th, 17th, 16th century...or older...nor that of any collegues with similar challenges as you claim observing...

I have...and I have provided a considerable amount of information refuting you understanding...

I don't expect (nor seek) anyone's "liking" of the subject as I present it. I know you don't agree with Bread Board Ends, however you belaboring that point is inutile toward the topic and unproductive for those trying to...LEARN SOMETHING THAT THEY ARE SEEKING KNOWLEDGE ABOUT.

The historic record and/or the realities of the proper methods of Bread Board Ends in context to functional, well designed and build applications of them is not open for debate. They are out there, and that (I think?) is what folks are trying to learn...
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post #46 of 87 Old 02-19-2019, 11:16 PM
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Sorry Folks...I did a bad edit job yesterday...

Quote:
Originally Posted by OutdoorSeeker View Post
http://www.woodworkingtips.com/etips/etip09.html

Here is a find from some searches I have came across.
That is a pretty good description...and a bit of "old history for me!"

One of the original founders and editors of Workbench Magazine was my Uncle...!!!

I love it when folks reference that magazine, as it brings back memories of growing up around some pretty incredibly talented Artisan and Craftspeople...

Quote:
Originally Posted by OutdoorSeeker View Post
Your saying that you donít make room for the dowel/peg to move in the tenon? Meaning that you donít enlarge the hole for wood movement?

I understand the movement in the tenon and mortise. But if there is no space for the peg to slide wouldnít there be damage?


Please accept my most humble of apologies...!!!

As Tim rightfully pointed out...I'm a dolt after 22:00 hrs in the evening sometimes...

I have to "cut and paste" quite often just to keep up with the volume of writing I do for students, clients, and related demands. Sometimes my editing (too late at night ) is not the best it should be...Sorry for that!

LETS TRY AGAIN:

"Hard Draw Pinning" with enlarge tenon mortise...if employing a "free tenon" with proper length you can "draw pin" both ends (if they are properly sized and of an appropriate width" to accommodate expansion/contraction of the wood diaphragm (aka slab or glued up large panel) as they can slightly rotating within an enlarged mortise...

In contrast..."Sloppy Fit Pins"...(aka elliptical peg hole) without enough "relish" (as they have become known), is poor practice because there is not enough "relish" at the end of the tenons and blow outs often occur, thereby leading to the loosening (which we do see in contemporary work too often) of the Bread Board End...

This is a very broad subject with many "good methods" and many..."not so good" methods usually of a contemporary nature of "reinvention" and/or poor understanding of the foundational modalities...

Quote:
Originally Posted by djg View Post
Not sure what you mean by 'sideways' but I figured Roy's way was right. I just didn't understand it. I have a lot of respect for someone who can do what he does with only hand tools.
Roy was right...

Its just out of context for a large slab or glued up panel. I thought (???) I explained why its different in his example...which had to do with width of the wood board and the species he selected...

PLEASE LET ME KNOW...!!!...if I can expand, explain or illustrate anything thus far in a better manner???

Apologies once more if I confused anyone!!!

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post #47 of 87 Old 02-19-2019, 11:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Jay C. White Cloud View Post
Bad examples of any joinery system...is just that..."BAD EXAMPLES!"



Sorry Steve...

That has no real bearing at all on the topic of Bread Board Ends nor the joinery that goes with them...

I have done these (and related methods) in green and dry wood both...

From cross sections as large as 300mm (~12") plus with huge trunnel/peg for floated bridge decking...all the way down to tiny "keepsake boxes"..."draw pinned"...with Hawthorn spikes, cactus thorn, Honey Locust or related esoteric tiny joinery pegs applicable to "slide joinery"...



In a very limited way...???...Yes I would agree you do "understand the procedures."

However, the issue is the "debate" you always seem to want to enter into with folks as if there is "equal value" in your opinion on the topic...???...I would respectfully offer that you do not always have equality in your understanding of a subject. It can (and does) often only confuse conversations like this one by you "trying" to interject a "view point" about something that you clearly are making...incorrect statements about based on understanding that is either out of context and/or pf a limited in nature...

I don't comment on many subjects here on the forum because they are about woodworking methods outside my expertise and/or field of interest...OR...I offer a little and if someone wants more of what...I do actually know...I will give it then...AND ONLY THEN!!!



Respectfully Steve...!!???

It isn't the "two of" anyone...Its you and your incessant compulsion to post comments even if the information you present is either inaccurate and/or out of context...or...of a very narrow scope...

Then (as you are in this post thread) needing to debate it to prove...???...I don't know what...



You have stated often on posts about this topic that you don't like Bread Board Ends...I don't understand why its emportant to do that each time and offer the same false assumptions and narrow perspectives of the topic?

Frankly Steve, what you like...and don't like...isn't often helpful to an OP trying to get advise on a subject that...THEY WANT TO KNOW ABOUT...whether you like the subject (or method) is irrelevant and extraneous...

I don't like "plastic finishes" but if a forum member is seeking advise about them I do one of two things:

1. I don't comment...

or

2. I give the best information, in context to there wants, goals and needs to address the topic...since "my likes" have no bearing to an OP topic of such a nature...



Again, You haven't describe any actual "old furniture" yet that I know of, nor presented photos of your work on them, or that of colleagues...

Old is not post World War II as that would be considered contemporary furniture...

Old is 300 to 1000 years...That's old and that is the context I am often referencing for posters requesting information regarding this topic...

BECAUSE...the methods, in good practice of fine woodworking, has not changed since then for many of these means, methods and materials!!!



I do not believe it is going to be productive to debate what you "think" is subjective...Believe as you wish for the work you do...

I can..very concisely...state that there is clearly "right and wrong" methods in woodworking...and not just..."different procedures."...that is simply an inaccurate comment...

Many modalities are also much better than others...Within the context of there different applications...Bread Boards Ends...WHEN DONE WELL AND PROPERLY...are applicable and often superior to other methods...and/or integral added measures of strengthening and stability for the long-term function of the piece...



In this conversation you have reference "post World War II" and at no time here, or in any other conversation I have read posted by you, ever clearly reference an exact circa date for a piece containing a Bread Board End on a from the 18th, 17th, 16th century...or older...nor that of any collegues with similar challenges as you claim observing...

I have...and I have provided a considerable amount of information refuting you understanding...

I don't expect (nor seek) anyone's "liking" of the subject as I present it. I know you don't agree with Bread Board Ends, however you belaboring that point is inutile toward the topic and unproductive for those trying to...LEARN SOMETHING THAT THEY ARE SEEKING KNOWLEDGE ABOUT.

The historic record and/or the realities of the proper methods of Bread Board Ends in context to functional, well designed and build applications of them is not open for debate. They are out there, and that (I think?) is what folks are trying to learn...
Whew....I'm out of type (breath)...I couldn't of typed (said) it any better. I'll second that!!!!

Have a Blessed and Prosperous day in Jesus's Awesome Love, Tim
........www.TSMFarms.com.......... John 3:16-21 ..........
Reveling God's awesome beauty while creating one of-a-kind flitches and heirlooms.
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post #48 of 87 Old 02-19-2019, 11:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay C. White Cloud View Post
Bad examples of any joinery system...is just that..."BAD EXAMPLES!"



Sorry Steve...

That has no real bearing at all on the topic of Bread Board Ends nor the joinery that goes with them...

I have done these (and related methods) in green and dry wood both...

From cross sections as large as 300mm (~12") plus with huge trunnel/peg for floated bridge decking...all the way down to tiny "keepsake boxes"..."draw pinned"...with Hawthorn spikes, cactus thorn, Honey Locust or related esoteric tiny joinery pegs applicable to "slide joinery"...



In a very limited way...???...Yes I would agree you do "understand the procedures."

However, the issue is the "debate" you always seem to want to enter into with folks as if there is "equal value" in your opinion on the topic...???...I would respectfully offer that you do not always have equality in your understanding of a subject. It can (and does) often only confuse conversations like this one by you "trying" to interject a "view point" about something that you clearly are making...incorrect statements about based on understanding that is either out of context and/or pf a limited in nature...

I don't comment on many subjects here on the forum because they are about woodworking methods outside my expertise and/or field of interest...OR...I offer a little and if someone wants more of what...I do actually know...I will give it then...AND ONLY THEN!!!



Respectfully Steve...!!???

It isn't the "two of" anyone...Its you and your incessant compulsion to post comments even if the information you present is either inaccurate and/or out of context...or...of a very narrow scope...

Then (as you are in this post thread) needing to debate it to prove...???...I don't know what...



You have stated often on posts about this topic that you don't like Bread Board Ends...I don't understand why its emportant to do that each time and offer the same false assumptions and narrow perspectives of the topic?

Frankly Steve, what you like...and don't like...isn't often helpful to an OP trying to get advise on a subject that...THEY WANT TO KNOW ABOUT...whether you like the subject (or method) is irrelevant and extraneous...

I don't like "plastic finishes" but if a forum member is seeking advise about them I do one of two things:

1. I don't comment...

or

2. I give the best information, in context to there wants, goals and needs to address the topic...since "my likes" have no bearing to an OP topic of such a nature...



Again, You haven't describe any actual "old furniture" yet that I know of, nor presented photos of your work on them, or that of colleagues...

Old is not post World War II as that would be considered contemporary furniture...

Old is 300 to 1000 years...That's old and that is the context I am often referencing for posters requesting information regarding this topic...

BECAUSE...the methods, in good practice of fine woodworking, has not changed since then for many of these means, methods and materials!!!



I do not believe it is going to be productive to debate what you "think" is subjective...Believe as you wish for the work you do...

I can..very concisely...state that there is clearly "right and wrong" methods in woodworking...and not just..."different procedures."...that is simply an inaccurate comment...

Many modalities are also much better than others...Within the context of there different applications...Bread Boards Ends...WHEN DONE WELL AND PROPERLY...are applicable and often superior to other methods...and/or integral added measures of strengthening and stability for the long-term function of the piece...



In this conversation you have reference "post World War II" and at no time here, or in any other conversation I have read posted by you, ever clearly reference an exact circa date for a piece containing a Bread Board End on a from the 18th, 17th, 16th century...or older...nor that of any collegues with similar challenges as you claim observing...

I have...and I have provided a considerable amount of information refuting you understanding...

I don't expect (nor seek) anyone's "liking" of the subject as I present it. I know you don't agree with Bread Board Ends, however you belaboring that point is inutile toward the topic and unproductive for those trying to...LEARN SOMETHING THAT THEY ARE SEEKING KNOWLEDGE ABOUT.

The historic record and/or the realities of the proper methods of Bread Board Ends in context to functional, well designed and build applications of them is not open for debate. They are out there, and that (I think?) is what folks are trying to learn...
The things you are saying are just your opinion. There isn't anything wrong with the type of breadboard end I have illustrated. It is a tried and true method of making a breadboard end that will hold up for many decades. Your argument is like arguing between a doweled joint and a mortise and tenon joint. Both are fine joints, just different.
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Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
...The things you are saying are just your opinion. There isn't anything wrong with the type of breadboard end I have illustrated.
Opinion...I don't believe so, but I will leave that up to the readers...I've clearly offered the reasons why it is fallible...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
...It is a tried and true method of making a breadboard end that will hold up for many decades.
No...actually, it is not, for the reasons I listed...and...you (??!!!) yourself shared reasons you don't like Bread Board Ends...

So sorry, you can't have it both ways...This elongated peg hole in short tenons is simply...BAD PRACTICE...within most applications if not all of them...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
...Your argument is like arguing between a doweled joint and a mortise and tenon joint. Both are fine joints, just different.
As to "doweled joints" vs "M&T" I agree both are fine joints...IN CONTEXT...but that is not germane to the topic of this post and is out of context...again!!!...comparatively...
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post #50 of 87 Old 02-20-2019, 12:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
The things you are saying are just your opinion. There isn't anything wrong with the type of breadboard end I have illustrated. It is a tried and true method of making a breadboard end that will hold up for many decades......

WELL I couldn't get the pic to post BUT I'll pick it apart...
1) the elongated holes are too wide Which creates a weak point allowing failure in the short straight grain left
2) TOOOOOOOOOOO much wood removed in all that mortised area causing multiple weak points to be listed
3) breadboard mortised ends (endgrain) tooooo thin = splitting risk
4) TOOO much thin floating wood in breadboard due to too much wood removed in this type of mortise again creating weaknesses
5) elongated holes tooooo close to main tabletop end grain creating weak point as in #1

Want MORE?????
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post #51 of 87 Old 02-20-2019, 12:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Tennessee Tim View Post
WELL I couldn't get the pic to post BUT I'll pick it apart...
1) the elongated holes are too wide Which creates a weak point allowing failure in the short straight grain left
2) TOOOOOOOOOOO much wood removed in all that mortised area causing multiple weak points to be listed
3) breadboard mortised ends (endgrain) tooooo thin = splitting risk
4) TOOO much thin floating wood in breadboard due to too much wood removed in this type of mortise again creating weaknesses
5) elongated holes tooooo close to main tabletop end grain creating weak point as in #1

Want MORE?????
You are probably right on the holes being too long on the illustration however if they didn't draw it that way it wouldn't show up. The ideal was to insure that the holes were elongated. If the holes are not elongated enough it will bust the top. There needs to be room for 3/8" of movement. As far as weak, all it's suppose to do is hold a breadboard end on. It's not like you are going to put a chain on it and pull your car out of a ditch with it. The strength of the tenon is sufficient for use as a table, as said earlier I've seen hundreds of them that were 50 years old or older and didn't need any repair other than grinding the ends off. The illustration shows the mortise on the breadboard not going all the way to the end so the thin edge on the breadboard end doesn't matter. The dowels are glued in holding the edges together in the center so it makes for a good solid joint and allowing for wood movement. Proportionally the thickness of the tenon is about right for the top shown. It appears to be a top that is 3/4" thick so it wouldn't be possible to make a thicker tenon. The majority of the tables I worked on were made with a 3/4" tops and the tenons were 1/4" thick and worked fine.
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post #52 of 87 Old 02-20-2019, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
...The ideal was to insure that the holes were elongated. If the holes are not elongated enough it will bust the top...
Very true...and an area we can agree is a challenge with doing them properly...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
...There needs to be room for 3/8" of movement...
That actually is not accurate...3/8 may be to big or too small accordingly....

This "elongation" is proportional to the:

Wood Species...Number of tenon...Type of tenon...Size of field diaphragm to be stiffened...Grain orientation and pattern...

all of those factors and a few more actually are what dictate the size (and quantity) of elongations...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
...As far as weak, all it's suppose to do is hold a breadboard end on. It's not like you are going to put a chain on it and pull your car out of a ditch with it.
Well...that would be a silly thing to do, and I don't believe anyone would ever try?

Further...no...it is not only to "...hold the breadboard end on..."it is also meant to stiffen and strengthen the field of wood it is attached to and to do that properly a thorough "draw pinning" must be performed...

I can say that many of the modern ones are "weak" because they are designed poorly and often based on plans like you yourself shared here.

Frankly I see more "bad examples" of Breadboards being designed and built than "good ones" for all the points raised in this post thread...

Too many people who..."think"...they know how they work actually don't at all...nor take the time to really learn and/or think about them in the orgin context of the system of joinery they belong to...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
...The strength of the tenon is sufficient for use as a table, as said earlier I've seen hundreds of them that were 50 years old or older and didn't need any repair other than grinding the ends off.
Agree fully...when done properly that is exactly how they should behave, but unfortunately I see many with the "ends ground off" and then when the table contracts there are issues...

Partially "proud" breadboard ends to some minor degree is normal...and not something to be "ground off" as this is part of the design on many examples (not all.)

Sizing a breadboard to accommodate as stable field will still entail a slight distal section to the board if properly designed and built built on most examples...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
... The illustration shows the mortise on the breadboard not going all the way to the end so the thin edge on the breadboard end doesn't matter. The dowels are glued in holding the edges together in the center so it makes for a good solid joint and allowing for wood movement.
If referring...again...to the drawing you shared...I can not agree...

That is a very bad example of how to build a proper bread board as the sizes and proportions of most of it are disproportioned and not in good context to typical applications of a proper breadboard...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
...Proportionally the thickness of the tenon is about right for the top shown. It appears to be a top that is 3/4" thick so it wouldn't be possible to make a thicker tenon. The majority of the tables I worked on were made with a 3/4" tops and the tenons were 1/4" thick and worked fine...
I agree with your assessment of the "sizing."

However, that is a diminutive and delicate example and...no again...the proportions are not examples of "good practice" for a breadboard end...

That is not "opinion" that is tangible design fact as I (et al) have quantified in some detail within this post thread...belaboring it is pointless and not good for those trying to learn how to do them properly...
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post #53 of 87 Old 02-20-2019, 11:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay C. White Cloud View Post
Very true...and an area we can agree is a challenge with doing them properly...



That actually is not accurate...3/8 may be to big or too small accordingly....

This "elongation" is proportional to the:

Wood Species...Number of tenon...Type of tenon...Size of field diaphragm to be stiffened...Grain orientation and pattern...

all of those factors and a few more actually are what dictate the size (and quantity) of elongations...



Well...that would be a silly thing to do, and I don't believe anyone would ever try?

Further...no...it is not only to "...hold the breadboard end on..."it is also meant to stiffen and strengthen the field of wood it is attached to and to do that properly a thorough "draw pinning" must be performed...

I can say that many of the modern ones are "weak" because they are designed poorly and often based on plans like you yourself shared here.

Frankly I see more "bad examples" of Breadboards being designed and built than "good ones" for all the points raised in this post thread...

Too many people who..."think"...they know how they work actually don't at all...nor take the time to really learn and/or think about them in the orgin context of the system of joinery they belong to...



Agree fully...when done properly that is exactly how they should behave, but unfortunately I see many with the "ends ground off" and then when the table contracts there are issues...

Partially "proud" breadboard ends to some minor degree is normal...and not something to be "ground off" as this is part of the design on many examples (not all.)

Sizing a breadboard to accommodate as stable field will still entail a slight distal section to the board if properly designed and built built on most examples...



If referring...again...to the drawing you shared...I can not agree...

That is a very bad example of how to build a proper bread board as the sizes and proportions of most of it are disproportioned and not in good context to typical applications of a proper breadboard...



I agree with your assessment of the "sizing."

However, that is a diminutive and delicate example and...no again...the proportions are not examples of "good practice" for a breadboard end...

That is not "opinion" that is tangible design fact as I (et al) have quantified in some detail within this post thread...belaboring it is pointless and not good for those trying to learn how to do them properly...
I'm not going to respond to all of this. You forget I have a great deal of experience with this type of breadboard end and I know what I'm talking about.
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post #54 of 87 Old 02-20-2019, 11:45 PM
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Quote:
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I'm not going to respond to all of this. You forget I have a great deal of experience with this type of breadboard end and I know what I'm talking about.
STEVE....IF I thought you knew what you were TALKING about, WE WOULDN'T be having this conversation.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
I'm not going to respond to all of this. You forget I have a great deal of experience with this type of breadboard end and I know what I'm talking about.
NO Sir...you clearly do not...

Sorry Steve, I can comment on what your "great deal of experience" is...or is not...?

My C.V., and related credentials are clearly linked to each and every post I make...I have yet to see yours, or very much of your "advance worked" outlined anywhere here other than some photos, and ubiquitous pandemic posting here on the forum...Nor have I found any substantial examples of your woodworking on the web?

I would never take away your talents where clearly reflected and valid. Such as your gift with carving wood...

But on this point Sir...respectfully you are wrong, the post you have made are incorrect, and if you can't acknowledge when your are clearly mistaken...I can not do more than correct the inaccuracies as they are understood within a given topic, as I have in this and related posts...and back them up with good explanation and links to support why...as others have tried as well to no avail with you...

I leave you to your own devise and reasoning to do as you please...
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Last edited by 35015; 02-21-2019 at 12:31 AM.
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post #56 of 87 Old 02-21-2019, 12:36 AM
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Unbelievable ...

55 posts and we still can't agree on how to make a proper breadboard end. We need to have a Breadboard Build Endurance Contest and see who's method stands the test of time.... check back on this thread in 25 years.

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)

Last edited by woodnthings; 02-21-2019 at 12:39 AM.
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post #57 of 87 Old 02-21-2019, 12:55 AM
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55 posts and we still can't agree on how to make a proper breadboard end. We need to have a Breadboard Build Endurance Contest and see who's method stands the test of time.... check back on this thread in 25 years.
Let's see now sonny boy, just where did I leave that chain to jerk that lil WHIPPERSNAPPER off with???

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post #58 of 87 Old 02-21-2019, 01:27 AM
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Quote:
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55 posts and we still can't agree on how to make a proper breadboard end. We need to have a Breadboard Build Endurance Contest and see who's method stands the test of time.... check back on this thread in 25 years.
Sadly, most of the tables built today will not be in use 25 years from now, fortunately we still have a few among us that can properly restore those pieces of significance for those in the future to look upon and appreciate. For the masses they will buy what is trendy today and dispose of it tomorrow for the next big craze. I can't imagine my parents parting with their hard earned dollars to purchase a piece of furniture made from crappy wood salvaged from a shipping pallet.

Wise men speak because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something -Plato

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post #59 of 87 Old 02-21-2019, 08:44 AM
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55 posts and we still can't agree on how to make a proper breadboard end. We need to have a Breadboard Build Endurance Contest and see who's method stands the test of time.... check back on this thread in 25 years.
I agree, this whole thing is idiotic. It's about a system that has been used by countless people and furniture manufacturers for a very long time.
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post #60 of 87 Old 02-21-2019, 10:33 AM
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This has been very enlightening to me. It has made me stop and think. What I have learned is that when working with wood joinery, one must really stop and think about the movement in many ways in order for the best long term success. And the fact that since wood expands and contracts, these facts can't be changed...but can be overcome to an extent.

Since the original posting question was asked...I have been keenly stimulated by all the opinions, and would like to thank everyone involved for the education. Banter included.
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