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post #21 of 87 Old 02-18-2019, 10:07 AM
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OK, you are talking about the dowel pins he added later. I agree that they should have elongated holes in the tenons. I don't really think they were necessary to start with.
Arenít the dowel pins necessary for drawing the end tight to the joint? I am about to attempt this with our kitchen island and have been studying the process.
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post #22 of 87 Old 02-18-2019, 10:25 AM
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Arenít the dowel pins necessary for drawing the end tight to the joint? I am about to attempt this with our kitchen island and have been studying the process.
The dowel pins don't draw the end tight. They only prevent the end from pulling away. Since the breadboard end is only glued in the center it needs something to prevent the breadboard end from pulling away in the event the end board would warp. Still, sometimes they do just that given sufficient pressure from the end board.
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post #23 of 87 Old 02-18-2019, 03:02 PM
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Here's one that I don't understand. In an episode of "The Wood Wright Shop" where he was making a breadboard edge for the lid of a tool box. He used through tenons on the breadboard edge which I though wouldn't allow the panel to move. Seems opposite of what I heard. I've seen that once before, but can't remember where. Anyone know what I'm talking about?



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post #24 of 87 Old 02-18-2019, 08:05 PM
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djg, The total finished width of his breadboard is 10". If you glue the center... the plank will expand outward from there (approximately 4" beyond the glued surface of the center mortice), so I would think it might move maybe 1/16". It may be able to crush the fibers that amount and you would be ok. A better way is to not use a through tenon on the outer tenons and allow a gap for expansion hidden in the mortice.

I think his thinking is that the panel is only 10", and he wants to show you how to make thru tenons.

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post #25 of 87 Old 02-18-2019, 08:07 PM
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The dowel pins don't draw the end tight. They only prevent the end from pulling away....
Sorry, that is technically and historically incorrect...They do draw it tight and actually are meant to draw it very tight and keep it that way even over centuries...

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Aren’t the dowel pins necessary for drawing the end tight to the joint? I am about to attempt this with our kitchen island and have been studying the process.
Hi OutdoorSeeker...

Short answer is...absolutely YES!!!

If the "Draw Pinning" is used appropriately it will snug the Bread Board directly (and tight!!!) up against the panel, slab or whatever field of wood (aka diaphragm) there is to keep it flat yet still allow seasonal expansion and contraction...The Draw Pin (aka peg, trunnel, tree nail) act under permanent tension almost like springs. In large versions of this work there is a prominent bend in Draw Pin that is clearly visible as we find in the restoration work of old furniture and timber frames...

Wood moves, and this joint, even though meant to be...very tight and under permanent pressure to stay so...it is still a sliding joint and will not retard or arrest the movement of the wood in large diaphragm from moving seasonally...Nor do the "tight" variations and alternatives to Bread Boards, like Sliding Dovetail Splines, Mortised Free Splines, Rod Doweling...etc...


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Originally Posted by djg View Post
Here's one that I don't understand. In an episode of "The Wood Wright Shop" where he was making a breadboard edge for the lid of a tool box. He used through tenons on the breadboard edge which I though wouldn't allow the panel to move. Seems opposite of what I heard. I've seen that once before, but can't remember where. Anyone know what I'm talking about?
Yes...

And that is a little different application though still a "stiffening and strengthening" member...

I'll explain why and show another video with a similar example to Roy's in his video for the "Sea Trunk" lid.

The primary different is the size of the wood (aka diaphragm) to be stiffened and kept flat...It's much smaller than a normal panal. In the best examples (the one in the video isn't that) it is only built from quarter, rift sawn or riven wood. You may also note a large strap hinge having some significant "trapping" affect against the wood as well, yet because of the much smaller seasonal change in its small cross section and the wood species itself being of a stable variety...this is virtually a nonissue to even worry about...

Large glue ups and slab panels (diaphragms) are the real challenge and where Bread Boards and other similar methods can really be put to work well...IF...they are understood and facilitated properly...

Here is another video demonstrating a "locked version" of a Bread Board end...


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post #26 of 87 Old 02-18-2019, 08:38 PM
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Sorry but I've seen hundreds of tables with a breadboard end on them and the dowels did nothing to pull the joint tight, they just prevented the joint from pulling apart.
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post #27 of 87 Old 02-18-2019, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Jay C. White Cloud View Post
Sorry, that is technically and historically incorrect...They do draw it tight and actually are meant to draw it very tight and keep it that way even over centuries...



Hi OutdoorSeeker...

Short answer is...absolutely YES!!!

If the "Draw Pinning" is used appropriately it will snug the Bread Board directly (and tight!!!) up against the panel, slab or whatever field of wood (aka diaphragm) there is to keep it flat yet still allow seasonal expansion and contraction...The Draw Pin (aka peg, trunnel, tree nail) act under permanent tension almost like springs. In large versions of this work there is a prominent bend in Draw Pin that is clearly visible as we find in the restoration work of old furniture and timber frames...

Wood moves, and this joint, even though meant to be...very tight and under permanent pressure to stay so...it is still a sliding joint and will not retard or arrest the movement of the wood in large diaphragm from moving seasonally...Nor do the "tight" variations and alternatives to Bread Boards, like Sliding Dovetail Splines, Mortised Free Splines, Rod Doweling...etc...




Yes...

And that is a little different application though still a "stiffening and strengthening" member...

I'll explain why and show another video with a similar example to Roy's in his video for the "Sea Trunk" lid.

The primary different is the size of the wood (aka diaphragm) to be stiffened and kept flat...It's much smaller than a normal panal. In the best examples (the one in the video isn't that) it is only built from quarter, rift sawn or riven wood. You may also note a large strap hinge having some significant "trapping" affect against the wood as well, yet because of the much smaller seasonal change in its small cross section and the wood species itself being of a stable variety...this is virtually a nonissue to even worry about...

Large glue ups and slab panels (diaphragms) are the real challenge and where Bread Boards and other similar methods can really be put to work well...IF...they are understood and facilitated properly...

Here is another video demonstrating a "locked version" of a Bread Board end...

The Asian Roubo Timber frame workbench, no nails, screws or glue, Japanese / Chinese joinery - YouTube
Sorry but I've seen hundreds of tables with a breadboard end on them and the dowels did nothing to pull the joint tight, they just prevented the joint from pulling apart.
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post #28 of 87 Old 02-18-2019, 09:10 PM
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Sorry but I've seen hundreds of tables with a breadboard end on them and the dowels did nothing to pull the joint tight, they just prevented the joint from pulling apart.
I can't speak at all for what you say you have seen...or what quality of work those examples reflected...

I can speak to the 40 years of work I have done, and those like Roy that I have actually worked with, and your assessment of this joint is neither accurate nor reflective of the standards. This is true, not only in this post, but others as well here on the forum from you regarding this joinery system.

The historic and/or restoration standard practices for such "stiffening and strengthening members," are executed exactly as I have described them...

I will have to respectfully disagree on this point for your assessment of Bread Boards... ...and I would leave it to the OP and readers to follow the advise they choose...
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post #29 of 87 Old 02-18-2019, 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Jay C. White Cloud View Post



Hi OutdoorSeeker...

Short answer is...absolutely YES!!!

If the "Draw Pinning" is used appropriately it will snug the Bread Board directly (and tight!!!) up against the panel, slab or whatever field of wood (aka diaphragm) there is to keep it flat yet still allow seasonal expansion and contraction...The Draw Pin (aka peg, trunnel, tree nail) act under permanent tension almost like springs. In large versions of this work there is a prominent bend in Draw Pin that is clearly visible as we find in the restoration work of old furniture and timber frames...

Wood moves, and this joint, even though meant to be...very tight and under permanent pressure to stay so...it is still a sliding joint and will not retard or arrest the movement of the wood in large diaphragm from moving seasonally...Nor do the "tight" variations and alternatives to Bread Boards, like Sliding Dovetail Splines, Mortised Free Splines, Rod Doweling...etc...

Thank you Jay for the insight. It seems to me that the peg would force the joint tighter.

So this brings up a question. I would assume the peg would need to be a harder or equally as hard as the boards themselves.
Is so, what would be the desired dowel for hickory. Is oak harder? I think I would like to see a little contrast in the dowels for looks.

Complete novice here so lots of question help me learn. Thanks again
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post #30 of 87 Old 02-18-2019, 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Jay C. White Cloud View Post
I can't speak at all for what you say you have seen...or what quality of work those examples reflected...

I can speak to the 40 years of work I have done, and those like Roy that I have actually worked with, and your assessment of this joint is neither accurate nor reflective of the standards. This is true, not only in this post, but others as well here on the forum from you regarding this joinery system.

The historic and/or restoration standard practices for such "stiffening and strengthening members," are executed exactly as I have described them...

I will have to respectfully disagree on this point for your assessment of Bread Boards... ...and I would leave it to the OP and readers to follow the advise they choose...
This is a pretty good example of the tables with breadboard ends that has passed through my shop. There's just nothing there that would pull the joint together.

The tables I worked on came from England, France and Germany done sometime after WW2.
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post #31 of 87 Old 02-18-2019, 10:39 PM
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Aren’t the dowel pins necessary for drawing the end tight to the joint? I am about to attempt this with our kitchen island and have been studying the process.
YES!!!!

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Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
The dowel pins don't draw the end tight. They only prevent the end from pulling away. Since the breadboard end is only glued in the center it needs something to prevent the breadboard end from pulling away in the event the end board would warp. Still, sometimes they do just that given sufficient pressure from the end board.
WRONG!!!

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This is a pretty good example of the tables with breadboard ends that has passed through my shop. There's just nothing there that would pull the joint together.

The tables I worked on came from England, France and Germany done sometime after WW2.
Steve, YES IF they are done CORRECTLY originally they SHOULD be draw bored (tightens the joint!!!)
IF you're having THAT many tables come through your shop for that repair SOMEBODY's doing/done their job WRONG!!!!...MAYBE that's why you're having to repair them!!!! GOOD food for thought!!!!
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post #32 of 87 Old 02-18-2019, 10:44 PM
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...Thank you Jay for the insight. It seems to me that the peg would force the joint tighter.
...You are most welcome...and that would be the appropriate and logical conclusion to draw...for a properly executed and jointed Bread Board strengthening and stiffening member...

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Originally Posted by OutdoorSeeker View Post
...So this brings up a question. I would assume the peg would need to be a harder or equally as hard as the boards themselves.
Yes...in most (not all) good examples that is the case...

Just like today, not every woodworker of the past was an expert or even best at their craft...Many examples are just "down and dirty"...green wood builds...by a farmer that needed something to live with and they needed it NOW!!! so used what they had...and went with it!!!

Now, for folks like me, that study such vernacular vintage work (within the context of several cultures)...it illustrates a clear spectrum of not only variable degrees of workmanship but it can (in time) also reflect clear cultural nuance and differentials within approach modalities to the craft in general and to this joint in specifics...

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Originally Posted by OutdoorSeeker View Post
...Is so, what would be the desired dowel for hickory. Is oak harder? I think I would like to see a little contrast in the dowels for looks...
Hardwoods in general are almost exclusively used in every culture for all wedge and trunnel/peg material (there are exceptions but not worth noting here.)

Hickory is an excellent peg material by (and for) some applications, and I would actually say more germane than oak, but a Oak can work also.

If you want contrast (and I'm putting on my "design hat" now) you can make a great impact in the presentation of piece of work, but must also be careful not to make it to "gaudy" either...Nevertheless, the effect in presenation and motiff is up to you as the creator...and...if you like it and what it "says!" to you as such, then that is what is most important...Its your work, and it leaves a message behind (if well made and finished) to the generation to follow...

Black Walnut would be great...So would Locust, Maple or Beech...and you can augment the color with traditional dies and stains if you want something really splashy...?!?!!!

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Originally Posted by OutdoorSeeker View Post
...Complete novice here so lots of question help me learn. Thanks again
I teach...and I love it...questions are awesome!!!

>>>

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Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
This is a pretty good example of the tables with breadboard ends that has passed through my shop. There's just nothing there that would pull the joint together...The tables I worked on came from England, France and Germany done sometime after WW2.
Frankly, no I don't think that is a good example of one...nor a style I would recommend for any Bread Board End, for a number of reasons...

I do agree it is...indeed...reflective of "modern" (aka post WWII) examples of the "re-interpenetration" of this joinery system. I have only seen similar on very rare occasions in 17th to 19th century work...on small chest work...

"Hard Draw Pinning" with enlarge tenon mortise...in contrast to..."Sloppy Fit Pins" (aka elliptical peg hole) as they have become known, is still the better practice. Blow outs can often occur with the latter and can also lead to the loosening (which we do see in contemporary work too often) of the Bread Board...

The examples I am most familiar with are replications I have built from examples much older (up to 500 years plus) and come from accross Europe, the Middle East and of course, Asia...Mainly in museums and private collections for study...then builds I normally do in the "folk styles."
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post #33 of 87 Old 02-18-2019, 10:48 PM
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Originally Posted by djg View Post
Here's one that I don't understand. In an episode of "The Wood Wright Shop" where he was making a breadboard edge for the lid of a tool box. He used through tenons on the breadboard edge which I though wouldn't allow the panel to move. Seems opposite of what I heard. I've seen that once before, but can't remember where. Anyone know what I'm talking about?



Tool Chest From Bristol;

https://www.pbs.org/video/woodwrights-shop-tool-chest-bristol/
DJG....NOTICE one thing in pic prior to starting video the breadboard is slightly sideways....MEANING there has to be play in it OR it wouldn't/couldn't be that way....he's too precise to be that sloppy.....hmmm....food for thought!!!!

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post #34 of 87 Old 02-19-2019, 05:41 AM
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http://www.woodworkingtips.com/etips/etip09.html

Here is a find from some searches I have came across.
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post #35 of 87 Old 02-19-2019, 05:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Jay C. White Cloud View Post

"Hard Draw Pinning" with enlarge tenon mortise...in contrast to..."Sloppy Fit Pins" (aka elliptical peg hole) as they have become known, is still the better practice. Blow outs can often occur with the latter and can also lead to the loosening (which we do see in contemporary work too often) of the Bread Board...
Your saying that you donít make room for the dowel/peg to move in the tenon? Meaning that you donít enlarge the hole for wood movement?

I understand the movement in the tenon and mortise. But if there is no space for the peg to slide wouldnít there be damage?
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looks like a good idea!

im very new to wood working but i think ill give this a try.
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post #37 of 87 Old 02-19-2019, 08:10 AM
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DJG....NOTICE one thing in pic prior to starting video the breadboard is slightly sideways....MEANING there has to be play in it OR it wouldn't/couldn't be that way....he's too precise to be that sloppy.....hmmm....food for thought!!!!

Not sure what you mean by 'sideways' but I figured Roy's way was right. I just didn't understand it. I have a lot of respect for someone who can do what he does with only hand tools.
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post #38 of 87 Old 02-19-2019, 09:06 AM
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Not sure what you mean by 'sideways' but I figured Roy's way was right. I just didn't understand it. I have a lot of respect for someone who can do what he does with only hand tools.
The joint opening isn't parallel meaning he intentionally has some extra mortise room for movement OR his normal tightness would've forced that pictures joint to be parallel at that depth .

Hands on....you'll love Jay's work and reputable input/information. His IS based on studies abroad, HANDS ON apprenticing, family's traditions, ....extensive other and above education in a wide spectrum involving many trades to which are at "Master" standard.

Outdoor seeker, I'll wait on Jays comment BUT I believe there is a misunderstanding via a quick typo error or forgotten sentence.....as I've got responses all typed in (or I thought) only to find out with all the info flowing through my head while typing I overlooked the important key meaning. I'm gonna guess he's talking about the "over" exagerrated/elongated holes (they show holes way too long which make them weak). He'll correct me if/as needed, I've not mastered (fully knowledged) all joints/fittings. I'm still acquiring indepth.
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post #39 of 87 Old 02-19-2019, 10:19 AM
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YES!!!!



WRONG!!!



Steve, YES IF they are done CORRECTLY originally they SHOULD be draw bored (tightens the joint!!!)
IF you're having THAT many tables come through your shop for that repair SOMEBODY's doing/done their job WRONG!!!!...MAYBE that's why you're having to repair them!!!! GOOD food for thought!!!!
I'm wasn't having that many tables come through my shop for repair, they were there for refinishing. I was just noting the construction method. I don't think I actually had to repair more than a couple. Most of the time the repair was limited to grinding the ends of the breadboard off because the wood on the table had shrunk.

There was an antique dealer near me that was buying containers of used furniture from Europe and selling them as antiques here. It was mostly restaurants that was buying the tables and they would go through the container lot and pick out the cleanest tables and pass on the tables that were abused or the finish had gone bad. The dealer would then take what was left and put them in a warehouse. This warehouse was 10,000 sq. ft. and when I met the dealer he had this warehouse stacked 4 & 5 high with these reject tables. I was asked to do a cheap repair and refinish of these tables in order he could sell them. It took us about 1 1/2 years to empty that warehouse.
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post #40 of 87 Old 02-19-2019, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Jay C. White Cloud View Post
...You are most welcome...and that would be the appropriate and logical conclusion to draw...for a properly executed and jointed Bread Board strengthening and stiffening member...



Yes...in most (not all) good examples that is the case...

Just like today, not every woodworker of the past was an expert or even best at their craft...Many examples are just "down and dirty"...green wood builds...by a farmer that needed something to live with and they needed it NOW!!! so used what they had...and went with it!!!

Now, for folks like me, that study such vernacular vintage work (within the context of several cultures)...it illustrates a clear spectrum of not only variable degrees of workmanship but it can (in time) also reflect clear cultural nuance and differentials within approach modalities to the craft in general and to this joint in specifics...



Hardwoods in general are almost exclusively used in every culture for all wedge and trunnel/peg material (there are exceptions but not worth noting here.)

Hickory is an excellent peg material by (and for) some applications, and I would actually say more germane than oak, but a Oak can work also.

If you want contrast (and I'm putting on my "design hat" now) you can make a great impact in the presentation of piece of work, but must also be careful not to make it to "gaudy" either...Nevertheless, the effect in presenation and motiff is up to you as the creator...and...if you like it and what it "says!" to you as such, then that is what is most important...Its your work, and it leaves a message behind (if well made and finished) to the generation to follow...

Black Walnut would be great...So would Locust, Maple or Beech...and you can augment the color with traditional dies and stains if you want something really splashy...?!?!!!



I teach...and I love it...questions are awesome!!!

>>>



Frankly, no I don't think that is a good example of one...nor a style I would recommend for any Bread Board End, for a number of reasons...

I do agree it is...indeed...reflective of "modern" (aka post WWII) examples of the "re-interpenetration" of this joinery system. I have only seen similar on very rare occasions in 17th to 19th century work...on small chest work...

"Hard Draw Pinning" with enlarge tenon mortise...in contrast to..."Sloppy Fit Pins" (aka elliptical peg hole) as they have become known, is still the better practice. Blow outs can often occur with the latter and can also lead to the loosening (which we do see in contemporary work too often) of the Bread Board...

The examples I am most familiar with are replications I have built from examples much older (up to 500 years plus) and come from accross Europe, the Middle East and of course, Asia...Mainly in museums and private collections for study...then builds I normally do in the "folk styles."
You have to take into consideration these guys here for the most part are not building a thick medieval top where there is going to be enough room for a wedge in it. The tops these guys are making are much thinner and only room for dowels like what is shown in the illustration.
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