Mechanics of breadboard - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
 47Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 87 Old 12-31-2018, 11:20 AM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Posts: 218
View phaelax's Photo Album My Photos
Mechanics of breadboard

I started asking about this in another thread but didn't want to hijack it so I made this one. I understand how to do it but I'm not understanding how it's effective. I don't get how it allows for expansion.

For example, a table with 5 boards joined into the breadboard as such:
pinned - normal - glued - normal - pinned

In the example video I watched, he used a domino and made a tight fit for the dominos in the boards and slightly larger holes in the breadboard, except for the middle one. The middle gets glued and thus cannot move. Should that center board expand it would push the others outward, which makes sense for the other domino holes in the breadboard to have a bit of wiggle room.

Now here's the part that's throwing me off, the pins. Those pins are locking the end boards in place which technically keeps the space between the end boards static. Far as I can understand a pin would be doing the exact same thing as glue unless the hole drilled through the breadboard into the domino was slightly larger than the pin inserted, which I didn't see him do in the video.



phaelax is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 87 Old 12-31-2018, 12:20 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Troy Michigan USA
Posts: 1,252
View gmercer_48083's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by phaelax View Post
I started asking about this in another thread but didn't want to hijack it so I made this one. I understand how to do it but I'm not understanding how it's effective. I don't get how it allows for expansion.

For example, a table with 5 boards joined into the breadboard as such:
pinned - normal - glued - normal - pinned

In the example video I watched, he used a domino and made a tight fit for the dominos in the boards and slightly larger holes in the breadboard, except for the middle one. The middle gets glued and thus cannot move. Should that center board expand it would push the others outward, which makes sense for the other domino holes in the breadboard to have a bit of wiggle room.

Now here's the part that's throwing me off, the pins. Those pins are locking the end boards in place which technically keeps the space between the end boards static. Far as I can understand a pin would be doing the exact same thing as glue unless the hole drilled through the breadboard into the domino was slightly larger than the pin inserted, which I didn't see him do in the video.



Create Woodworking Breadboard Ends Quick And Easy - YouTube
You are right! In the video the dominos being glued into the end grain of the tabletop to form a tenon means it will expand or shrink from side to side. These so called tenons must have holes elongated (which he doesn't do) to allow the tenon to move within the mortice. A small dab of glue to hold the pin from falling out of the bread board is acceptable as long as the glue does not seep into the tenon. My opinion is that using dominoes would be a undersized tenon...being there is not much wood left in the tenon after elongating the hole.

Don't believe everything you see done on YouTube.
Joe Lyddon and Tennessee Tim like this.

Gary

Woodworking is like wetting myself....Only I know that warm feeling!

Last edited by gmercer_48083; 12-31-2018 at 12:23 PM.
gmercer_48083 is offline  
post #3 of 87 Old 12-31-2018, 12:31 PM
where's my table saw?
 
woodnthings's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: SE, Michigan
Posts: 27,552
View woodnthings's Photo Album My Photos
Watch this......

https://youtu.be/fW4AVb2XDMk?t=140


You can see that the "tenons" are glued into the table end, BUT the slots or mortises are elongated on the breadboard end. The allows for lateral expansion or contraction of the table across it's width. It is free to move in or out from the center pin which is glued in place.



There Ya go!

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)

Last edited by woodnthings; 12-31-2018 at 03:01 PM.
woodnthings is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 87 Old 12-31-2018, 12:45 PM
where's my table saw?
 
woodnthings's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: SE, Michigan
Posts: 27,552
View woodnthings's Photo Album My Photos
Watch this ......

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmercer_48083 View Post
You are right! In the video the dominos being glued into the end grain of the tabletop to form a tenon means it will expand or shrink from side to side. These so called tenons must have holes elongated (which he doesn't do) to allow the tenon to move within the mortice. A small dab of glue to hold the pin from falling out of the bread board is acceptable as long as the glue does not seep into the tenon. My opinion is that using dominoes would be a undersized tenon...being there is not much wood left in the tenon after elongating the hole.

Don't believe everything you see done on YouTube.

Don't believe everything you read here either .....

https://youtu.be/fW4AVb2XDMk?t=122

He DOES elongate the breadboard mortises. You can see how much longer they are than the mortises for the tabletop end.

https://youtu.be/fW4AVb2XDMk?t=140
mjadams61 likes this.

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)

Last edited by woodnthings; 12-31-2018 at 12:59 PM.
woodnthings is online now  
post #5 of 87 Old 12-31-2018, 12:51 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Troy Michigan USA
Posts: 1,252
View gmercer_48083's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by woodnthings View Post
https://youtu.be/fW4AVb2XDMk?t=140


You can see that the "pins" are glued into the table end, BUT the slots or mortises are elongated on the breadboard end. The allows for lateral expansion or contraction of the table across it's width. It is free to move in or out from the center pin which is glued in place.



There Ya go!
When he drilled the hole for the pin, he did not elongate the hole...so in effect it is the same as gluing...not a good thing. He should have drilled the holes, then remove the breadboard to expose the tenon (domino), then he should have elongated the hole in the domino (tenon). At that point re install the breadboard, with glue on the center tenon only, and add the pins at that point.
woodnthings likes this.

Gary

Woodworking is like wetting myself....Only I know that warm feeling!
gmercer_48083 is offline  
post #6 of 87 Old 12-31-2018, 12:59 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Troy Michigan USA
Posts: 1,252
View gmercer_48083's Photo Album My Photos
Yes he left room for the tenons to move in the mortices...but by not elongating the holes he effectively locked them to the breadboard which would prevent them from moving as required.

Gary

Woodworking is like wetting myself....Only I know that warm feeling!
gmercer_48083 is offline  
post #7 of 87 Old 12-31-2018, 01:12 PM
where's my table saw?
 
woodnthings's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: SE, Michigan
Posts: 27,552
View woodnthings's Photo Album My Photos
This makes no sense to me ....

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmercer_48083 View Post
Yes he left room for the tenons to move in the mortices...but by not elongating the holes he effectively locked them to the breadboard which would prevent them from moving as required.
OK, you are talking about the dowel pins he added later. I agree that they should have elongated holes in the tenons. I don't really think they were necessary to start with.
woodchuckbenjamin likes this.

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)

Last edited by woodnthings; 12-31-2018 at 01:14 PM.
woodnthings is online now  
post #8 of 87 Old 12-31-2018, 02:57 PM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Posts: 218
View phaelax's Photo Album My Photos
Alright, so the video wasn't a good example and I'm not crazy.
woodchuckbenjamin likes this.
phaelax is offline  
post #9 of 87 Old 12-31-2018, 03:07 PM
where's my table saw?
 
woodnthings's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: SE, Michigan
Posts: 27,552
View woodnthings's Photo Album My Photos
The video was OK right up until .....

Quote:
Originally Posted by woodnthings View Post
OK, you are talking about the dowel pins he added later. I agree that they should have elongated holes in the tenons. I don't really think they were necessary to start with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phaelax View Post
Alright, so the video wasn't a good example and I'm not crazy.

Everything was fine until he drilled the tenons and pinned them in place which defeated the whole process of elongating the mortises. I don't understand why the pins/dowels were even used. Good that you saw that and pointed it out. I will add a comment to the video and bring that up. That's when I saw that there were other comments which said the same thing.

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)

Last edited by woodnthings; 12-31-2018 at 03:24 PM.
woodnthings is online now  
post #10 of 87 Old 12-31-2018, 07:10 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 26,036
View Steve Neul's Photo Album My Photos
In my opinion I don't think the guy making the video knows the first thing about wood or woodworking. A table top as large as that will shrink more than 1/8" over the next 30 years and there is insufficient slack in the dominos to allow for that.

This is the only method I would endorse for a breadboard end.
Attached Images
 
gmercer_48083 likes this.
Steve Neul is offline  
post #11 of 87 Old 12-31-2018, 07:46 PM
Former Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,512
View 35015's Photo Album My Photos
You are not crazy!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by phaelax View Post
Alright, so the video wasn't a good example and I'm not crazy.
You are not crazy...and it would seem all the "old hats" here are in complete agreement on this one...!!!

This is just one more example of..."Boobtube expert"...coping what some other "expert" on "Boob-tube" is doing...and in reality none of them actually are "experts" at all but felt compelled to make a video...

None of them (or very few) understand fully what they are doing and just coping things they see others do without context or understanding from within a given craft...

I would note...for clarity...that I build many of my "production run" tables in a very similar manner with exactly the same tool...The speed is incredible and accuracy is excellent!!!

However, the standard domino is not recommend

1. You have to make a custom free toggle (aka domino) to accommodate the enlarged hole for the draw pin (aka peg-trunnel) that holds on the Bread Board.

2. No glue is necessary if one wishes to only use joinery...

Last edited by 35015; 12-31-2018 at 08:12 PM.
35015 is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to 35015 For This Useful Post:
Tennessee Tim (12-31-2018)
post #12 of 87 Old 12-31-2018, 07:55 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 5,666
View FrankC's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
In my opinion I don't think the guy making the video knows the first thing about wood or woodworking. A table top as large as that will shrink more than 1/8" over the next 30 years and there is insufficient slack in the dominos to allow for that.

This is the only method I would endorse for a breadboard end.
Exactly, can't illustrate it better than that, unfortunately there are always going to be those that follow along with these online experts that have no understanding of how wood behaves.

Wise men speak because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something -Plato

FrankC
http://sawdustmaking.com
http://woodworkerglossary.com
FrankC is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to FrankC For This Useful Post:
Tennessee Tim (12-31-2018)
post #13 of 87 Old 12-31-2018, 08:11 PM
where's my table saw?
 
woodnthings's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: SE, Michigan
Posts: 27,552
View woodnthings's Photo Album My Photos
Cool Ok, fine!

Just so's you all know, I'm not posting another You Video for the rest of this year! That's it for me. I'm done!


Happy New Year.
Tony B likes this.

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
woodnthings is online now  
post #14 of 87 Old 12-31-2018, 09:06 PM
Former Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,512
View 35015's Photo Album My Photos
A good video...

I do like some of the videos on Youtube...Some are really good and don't try to "teach" just show an example of a given method...

In support of Steve Neul's example and an example of a good "Youtuber" (in my view of it) here is a video showing the basic method...but of course there are many other "good" methods...

BigJim, gmercer_48083 and KevinM like this.
35015 is offline  
post #15 of 87 Old 12-31-2018, 11:53 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 5,666
View FrankC's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by woodnthings View Post
Just so's you all know, I'm not posting another You Video for the rest of this year! That's it for me. I'm done!


Happy New Year.
And I am not going to watch any more that you have posted for the rest of this year!

Happy New Year Everybody!
35015 likes this.

Wise men speak because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something -Plato

FrankC
http://sawdustmaking.com
http://woodworkerglossary.com
FrankC is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to FrankC For This Useful Post:
35015 (01-01-2019)
post #16 of 87 Old 01-01-2019, 07:30 AM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Posts: 218
View phaelax's Photo Album My Photos
24 hours ago, I didn't even know what a breadboard was. I've seen it before but never knew it had a name. I want to make a table now, just as soon as I finish my round one.
phaelax is offline  
post #17 of 87 Old 01-01-2019, 08:26 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 26,036
View Steve Neul's Photo Album My Photos
All the breadboard end does is reduce the chance of the top warping on a thin top. If the table you make the top is an inch thick or thicker you don't really need it. A thicker top would bend the breadboard end if it warped. Then there is problems associated with the breadboard end. Since they are only glued in the center the joints are prone to break causing a needed repair. Then when the top shrinks the breadboard end will be sticking out past the table. When I had an antique repair shop I had to grind most tables off that had the breadboard end and touch up the finish. Some the breadboard ends were sticking out about 3/16" on each side.
Steve Neul is offline  
post #18 of 87 Old 01-01-2019, 07:50 PM
Former Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,512
View 35015's Photo Album My Photos
Locking Large Wood Diaphragm projects with stiffeners...Thick or Thin...

I am more than open and eager to read/hear what others have designed, and/or built regarding large table tops, floors, bridge spans and the related...

From my experience some form of stiffener mush be applied...irregardless of thickness...of the diaphragm size, be it joined wood pieces wood, large slabs, or even logs in hole, "corduroy" or "puncheon" in style. When these are locked together to form a monolithic diaphragm of wood, some type of stiffening members is most often require to arrest warp, distortion or other related challenge...

Thick or thin...Bread Board Ends...Stiffening Splines...Apron Supports...Rails and related modalities are more than applicable in large diaphragm woodworking, be it a single massive slab of wood or a series of joined wood pieces.

I can account from this in as much I have designed and/or built several very thick projects that would have otherwise warped (or did due to my failure in this regard) if not end joined and/or spline in some fashion within the body of the diaphragm.

As just some examples of projects I have designed and/or built illustrating this:

300mm (~12") thick Tank pads for the Marines.
Temporary log bridges for Forestry/trail maintenance and access operation.
Corduroy roads.
Puncheon and related floor systems.
Large slab and plank Table assemblies never thinner (in my work) than 30mm (~1.25") and averaging 50mm to 150mm (~2" to 6") thick.

All of these require a BB, or some other "stiffing member" to arrest warp and distortion within the diaphragm while still enabling the need for seasonal expansion/contraction...
Tennessee Tim likes this.

Last edited by 35015; 01-01-2019 at 07:53 PM.
35015 is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to 35015 For This Useful Post:
Tennessee Tim (01-01-2019)
post #19 of 87 Old 01-01-2019, 08:13 PM
Sawing against the Wind
 
Tennessee Tim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: God's beautiful hills of Middle Tennessee
Posts: 2,381
View Tennessee Tim's Photo Album My Photos
Plus one here....I agree with Jay...most widths/spans need support, it's all in what flavor you like!!!

Have a Blessed and Prosperous day in Jesus's Awesome Love, Tim
........www.TSMFarms.com.......... John 3:16-21 ..........
Reveling God's awesome beauty while creating one of-a-kind flitches and heirlooms.
Tennessee Tim is offline  
post #20 of 87 Old 01-23-2019, 03:37 PM
Member
 
KevinM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 42
View KevinM's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay C. White Cloud View Post
I do like some of the videos on Youtube...Some are really good and don't try to "teach" just show an example of a given method...

In support of Steve Neul's example and an example of a good "Youtuber" (in my view of it) here is a video showing the basic method...but of course there are many other "good" methods...

WEDGED DOVETAIL OAK MEDICINE CABINET - YouTube

Nice video subscribed also
35015 likes this.
KevinM is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Tight tenon location for breadboard sides? Unsoluble Design & Plans 6 07-10-2018 03:38 PM
breadboard end desing on tables dkm0038 Joinery 2 03-03-2017 09:26 PM
Drawboring a breadboard end, yes or no? BZawat General Woodworking Discussion 10 03-25-2016 01:02 PM
Breadboard ends - drawbore or no? BZawat Joinery 2 03-23-2016 11:37 AM
Dining table build - breadboard questions DeanK General Woodworking Discussion 7 11-02-2015 09:41 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome