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post #1 of 17 Old 02-06-2017, 09:10 PM Thread Starter
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At a loss..

I'm trying to design a kitchen table for my wife and I'm at a loss on how to joint these pieces.



I've thought about using a half lap to joint the two legs together at the center, but I'm not sure how I should connect the stretcher to the center. Nothing has been built yet its all still pixels so I can change whatever I need to if someone has better ideas. Anyone?

Thanks Matthew

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post #2 of 17 Old 02-06-2017, 09:37 PM
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Typically ....

The X braces/legs are typically joined with a half lap. So that makes the best sense. Attaching the stretcher with a lag bolt though the joint would be easy. I would make a shallow mortise on the insides of the legs to accept the stretcher so it can't rotate or slip. Other than relocating it, that's the easiest way I can think of.

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
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post #3 of 17 Old 02-06-2017, 10:17 PM
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For the legs do a half lap, on the inside leg make the same cut as a half lap on the other side as well but only about 3/8" deep, that will give you a pocket to hold the stretcher then fasten it with lags or....If the legs don't cross at 90 degrees you may have to make adjustments on the inside pocket.

Are you allowing the top to expand across the width and is that a breadboard along the end?

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post #4 of 17 Old 02-06-2017, 10:44 PM Thread Starter
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Yes its a bradboard end, the original plan I drew this off of has the top and ends joined with splines. I dont have those drawn into the program yet so they can't be seen. I plan on bolting it to top with some room for expansion. Its still in the planning phase, I had a different style bottom originally designed but my wife really likes the X style legs so I'm having to redesign a bit.

Edit: This is th basic design we liked. Ive had to redesign some of it. Trying to keep most of the important parts since I assume they won't put out a plan that won't stay together for a while. But I could be wrong.
http://www.woodsmithplans.com/plan/f...ble-and-bench/

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post #5 of 17 Old 02-07-2017, 03:47 AM
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I would half lap the legs, then do a through mortise with a pegged tenon for the stretcher. Or perhaps a wedged tenon if you didn't want to see the peg.

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post #6 of 17 Old 02-07-2017, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Al_Amantea View Post
I would half lap the legs, then do a through mortise with a pegged tenon for the stretcher. Or perhaps a wedged tenon if you didn't want to see the peg.

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Blast, you beat me to the suggestion. Given the style I think a pegged through-tennon would look quite nice

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post #7 of 17 Old 02-07-2017, 06:31 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Al_Amantea View Post
I would half lap the legs, then do a through mortise with a pegged tenon for the stretcher. Or perhaps a wedged tenon if you didn't want to see the peg.

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Would a through tenon weaken the legs where the half lap meets?
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post #8 of 17 Old 02-07-2017, 06:39 PM
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Quote:
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Would a through tenon weaken the legs where the half lap meets?
Not once the tenon was installed and pegged. That's why I suggested either a pegged tenon or wedged tenon. Both styles will give the joint a mechanical means of strengthening the joint, locking all three pieces together. Once glued together and installed, there would be no physical way for either the half lap or the mortise/tenon to move.
Make the mortise approximately 1/3 the size of the stretcher in both directions (height and width), centered on the stretcher, and you will have plenty of shoulder strength and meat left in the half lap.
This would actually be a much stronger joint than a blind mortise and tenon.

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post #9 of 17 Old 02-07-2017, 06:41 PM Thread Starter
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Intresting idea, going to draw it up in sketchup and see how it goes. The blind mortice and tenon would probably look the best too. Although I do like the idea of a wedge tenon.

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post #10 of 17 Old 02-07-2017, 06:53 PM
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Would a through tenon weaken the legs where the half lap meets?
Eh, technically yes, the material removed from the pieces to create the mortise would reduce the strength of those pieces. A better question is "will it weaken the legs enough to be a problem", in which case the answer is "not unless you massively oversize the tenon"

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post #11 of 17 Old 02-07-2017, 08:04 PM
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Eh, technically yes, the material removed from the pieces to create the mortise would reduce the strength of those pieces. A better question is "will it weaken the legs enough to be a problem", in which case the answer is "not unless you massively oversize the tenon"
Correct, however, because the material removed would be replaced with the tenon, which would have not only a glue bond but also a mechanical retention (wedge or pegged through tenon) this is a moot point, as any material removed will be replaced by the tenon.
The mechanical fastening of the tenon would also work to reinforce the half lap joint, further increasing the strength of the completed 3 way joint.

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post #12 of 17 Old 02-07-2017, 08:26 PM
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Intresting idea, going to draw it up in sketchup and see how it goes. The blind mortice and tenon would probably look the best too. Although I do like the idea of a wedge tenon.
No way would I do a blind mortise and tenon here. That would result in a heavily weakened joint at the half lap and the mortise.
Through tenon.
Either wedged or pegged, is, in my opinion, the only ways to go here and result in a table that will last through time.
Remember that as a table is a huge horizontal surface, they tend to hold a lot of weight, and typically get slid around on the legs. That's quite a bit of lateral force applied to the legs.
I certainly wouldn't want to be responsible if the stretcher failed as a child or other person were climbing/sitting on it. We all know you aren't supposed to do that, but hey... People do that all the time!
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post #13 of 17 Old 02-08-2017, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Al_Amantea View Post
Correct, however, because the material removed would be replaced with the tenon, which would have not only a glue bond but also a mechanical retention (wedge or pegged through tenon) this is a moot point, as any material removed will be replaced by the tenon.
The mechanical fastening of the tenon would also work to reinforce the half lap joint, further increasing the strength of the completed 3 way joint.

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That's why I said technically :D I'm with you, there's nothing to worry about

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post #14 of 17 Old 02-08-2017, 07:41 PM
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Half lap on the legs, lengthen the stretcher and set it in the V formed by the legs. Ends of the stretcher can be beveled and glued and doweled in place. Much stronger than tenon in the half lap. Half lap joint can be moved down if needed.

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post #15 of 17 Old 02-08-2017, 08:19 PM
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Half lap on the legs, lengthen the stretcher and set it in the V formed by the legs. Ends of the stretcher can be beveled and glued and doweled in place. Much stronger than tenon in the half lap. Half lap joint can be moved down if needed.
I'm not sure I would agree with you here.
There is no way a pegged tenon joint would not be stronger than what you are suggesting.

Even doweling and gluing the stretcher as you described would be a weaker joint, especially on the top faces of the stretcher.

Not to mention the difficulties in trying to relocate the half lap joint. That needs to be at the meeting point of the two cross assemblies,and cannot be moved.

Also, why bevel the ends of the stretcher? That just further weakens the joint you are proposing.

As stated earlier, the pegged tenon provides a great deal of strength to not only the stretcher, but also the half lap joint.
Once pegged, and the wedge is driven in place, this joint would be much stronger than the wood itself, and mechanically prevent it from coming apart without physical damage to all 3 parts.

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post #16 of 17 Old 02-08-2017, 08:25 PM
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I'm not sure I would agree with you here.
There is no way a pegged tenon joint would not be stronger than what you are suggesting.

Even doweling and gluing the stretcher as you described would be a weaker joint, especially on the top faces of the stretcher.

Not to mention the difficulties in trying to relocate the half lap joint. That needs to be at the meeting point of the two cross assemblies,and cannot be moved.

Also, why bevel the ends of the stretcher? That just further weakens the joint you are proposing.

As stated earlier, the pegged tenon provides a great deal of strength to not only the stretcher, but also the half lap joint.
Once pegged, and the wedge is driven in place, this joint would be much stronger than the wood itself, and mechanically prevent it from coming apart without physical damage to all 3 parts.

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It can be moved, the angles change some. BTDT. The ends of the stretcher being beveled if done correctly do little to weaken the joint. A 1/2" dowel thru the stretcher into each side of the leg's V along with the face grain to face grain glue joint provide a strong joint, and the half lap joint is not weakened by a thru tenon.

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post #17 of 17 Old 02-08-2017, 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Alchymist View Post
A 1/2" dowel thru the stretcher into each side of the leg's V along with the face grain to face grain glue joint provide a strong joint, and the half lap joint is not weakened by a thru tenon.
The half lap would only be weakened if the tenon was not put in place.
Once the tenon is installed, it is actually REINFORCING the half lap.

But enough arguing. I stand firm in my convictions, as I imagine you do as well. We just will need to agree to disagree here. No harm, no foul.

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