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post #1 of 18 Old 10-15-2012, 08:02 AM Thread Starter
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Japanese Saw

Good Morning,

I am thinking of building a humidor with joinery only and no power tools...I have been looking around for a good hand saw and they can be very high priced. Does anyone have any experience with both a "cheap" japanese saw and a higher priced one?
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post #2 of 18 Old 10-15-2012, 09:17 AM
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I thought today when you talk about cheap tools the discussion was about Chinese tools. I haven't heard Japanese junk in nearly 40 years. Anyway a better tool is always easier to obtain good results however it comes down to more of the talent of the person with the tool rather than the quality of the tool. If you don't do a lot of work I would buy the cheap tool and take more time with it.
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post #3 of 18 Old 10-15-2012, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieC View Post
Good Morning,

I am thinking of building a humidor with joinery only and no power tools...I have been looking around for a good hand saw and they can be very high priced. Does anyone have any experience with both a "cheap" japanese saw and a higher priced one?
Hi Charlie - I'm not into the fine hand cut joinery much but I did pick up a little Marples (by Irwin) detail saw for fine tuning joints and fluch cutting dowels that looks like a good, inexpensive saw for what you're wanting to do.
http://www.homedepot.com/Tools-Hardw...ct_description

Under $15, replaceable blade, no tooth set and very thin kerf.

John

If I strive for perfection, I can generally achieve good'nuff, If I strive for good'nuff, I generally achieve firewood
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post #4 of 18 Old 10-15-2012, 10:07 AM
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I have the Marples. The design aspect I do not like is the method to hold the blade. The end of the blade is shaped into two prongs, with a plastic device to hold the prongs. It is too easy to pull the blade through the plastic if you get stuck on a pull stroke.

I would prefer a blade with a hole for a screw like this one.

http://www.harborfreight.com/hand-to...saw-67058.html

I do not have experience with the better quality Japanese pull saws.

I find the pull stroke is not as easy for me to use as the western push stroke. Perhaps muscle memory. Personal preference.

I know lots of people prefer the pull stroke saws.
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post #5 of 18 Old 10-15-2012, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieC View Post
Good Morning,

I am thinking of building a humidor with joinery only and no power tools...I have been looking around for a good hand saw and they can be very high priced. Does anyone have any experience with both a "cheap" japanese saw and a higher priced one?
I bought a "cheap" (probably around $15) Japanese style pull saw around 15 years ago. Compared to the US style push type of saw that was a great purchase.

For my use it was both much more accurate and easier to use. I have no experience with more expensive models.

George
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post #6 of 18 Old 10-15-2012, 12:17 PM
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http://www.harborfreight.com/hand-to...saw-67058.html

I have this saw. In fact, I also have http://www.harborfreight.com/japanes...saw-39273.html which I use for small dowels, etc.

For the times when I've tried to hand-cut tenons, I used http://www.harborfreight.com/10-inch...saw-94722.html -- this is my absolute FAVORITE hand saw and sees the most use. Bang for buck is through the roof!
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post #7 of 18 Old 10-15-2012, 12:32 PM
where's my table saw?
 
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I like the Vaughn pull saws

Home Depot had them but now I get mine on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Vaughan-BS333C-13-Inch-Coarse-Medium/dp/B00004Z2X3
I got some of the Harbor Fright ones, but they don't compare to the Vaughns in my opinion.
This is my favorite:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00004Z2WO/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_1?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B00004Z2X3&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=1K5CZN8E3R4B3SQ8R9BYAn observation is that when you pull on a thin blade it is self straightening, like pulling on a rope. When you push on the same blade it can bend and deflect, like pushing on a rope. The thinner the blade the better a pull saw will perform, and when you are cutting fine details you want a thin blade. JMO.

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
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post #8 of 18 Old 10-15-2012, 12:33 PM
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I agree. My HFT saws are pull saws.

EDIT: I don't agree with vaughns being better than HFT saws, because I've never used it. I am agreeing with the pushing/bending part for push-style saws.

Last edited by dmike; 10-15-2012 at 01:37 PM.
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post #9 of 18 Old 10-15-2012, 12:34 PM
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the japanese style saws sold at the big box stores are too flexible for proper joinery. they flex and move as you saw thru material. there are lower priced japanese dozukies with a rigid spine which helps enormously.

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?p...FROe4AodoTYAcA

this one is a little more expensive but that spine is a huge help.
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post #10 of 18 Old 10-15-2012, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by gideon View Post
the japanese style saws sold at the big box stores are too flexible for proper joinery. they flex and move as you saw thru material. there are lower priced japanese dozukies with a rigid spine which helps enormously.

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?p...FROe4AodoTYAcA

this one is a little more expensive but that spine is a huge help.
How is it that you are getting "they flex and move" when the power stroke is a pull stroke? Are you trying to get a cutting action as you push the saw back into position for the next power stroke?

George
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post #11 of 18 Old 10-16-2012, 07:56 AM
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How is it that you are getting "they flex and move" when the power stroke is a pull stroke? Are you trying to get a cutting action as you push the saw back into position for the next power stroke?

George
sometimes they kind of flex/bend causing the blade to go off line of cut. they can flex pretty easily. maybe i need to lighten up or slow down on my cut
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post #12 of 18 Old 10-16-2012, 06:12 PM
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I hope that by japanese saw you mean the pullsaws that they use. I bought an irwin pullsaw which was double sided like the japanese do. It gives very nice and fine cuts. It does nothing a good tenon saw won't do though. I use them both just as much but I don't find the japanese saw... essential.

As for price, I used one that cost 50 dollars which was good and one that cost 10 dollars which was the irwin which I prefer.

Hope that helps!
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post #13 of 18 Old 10-16-2012, 07:02 PM
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I have a double edged pull saw that I bought at Home Depot and I also have a Japanese dovetail saw which my wife bought at a craft show. The dovetail saw was very expensive.

Both have their place in my shop. If you are having trouble with bending rub some paraffin wax on each side of the blade. I think you will find it will work much better.
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post #14 of 18 Old 10-17-2012, 06:58 AM
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sometimes they kind of flex/bend causing the blade to go off line of cut. they can flex pretty easily. maybe i need to lighten up or slow down on my cut
You need to do something. I do not see how that can happen on the pull stroke on a pull saw.

George
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post #15 of 18 Old 10-17-2012, 11:06 AM
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You need to do something. I do not see how that can happen on the pull stroke on a pull saw.

George
I don't care for sawing in the pull stroke, it just seems wrong to me. That's said I have tried a couple pull saws at different price points and tried them long enough, I thought, to decide if I could ever get accustomed to em. I couldn't make myself like them. The only time I liked them was for ripping very thin sheet goods. Bottom line though, after having picked up the first western saw so many yrs ago I've likely established habits that have a negative effect on the use of pull saws and put it outside of my relaxed comfort zone.

It's my believe that pull saws are not beneficial for a student of joinery. The reason is that cutting a straight line can be a challenge to master and the student often has a tendency to try to cut to the line even with a cut began off-line. A back-less pull saw allow the user to curve the saw plate enough to follow the line and results in a kinked saw and a poor fitting joint.

With a back saw it's more difficult to curve the plate, still very possible, but the binding effect from a backsaw offers immediate feed-back that the user is doing something wrong. So from a teaching / learning aspect I believe a backsaw is more edifying to build the basic muscle memory and principles.

Good luck with your humidor! I hope to see build pictures!
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post #16 of 18 Old 10-17-2012, 02:11 PM
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You need to do something. I do not see how that can happen on the pull stroke on a pull saw.

George
After reading this thread I decided to try again with my Irwin Pull saw.

I needed to cut a 2in wide piece, and rather than use the chop saw, decided to give the Irwin another try.

This is double edged, so no spline.

As usual, I got the saw caught in the pull stroke and bent the saw slightly. Easy to fix, but reminds me my muscle memory does much better with a push than a pull. However my arm does not want to push or pull in an exact straight line. My motion has some curve, whether I like it or not.

I know I should be able to train myself to have a perfectly straight stroke, but this is not happening easily.
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post #17 of 18 Old 10-17-2012, 04:46 PM
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I have several, I keep a cheap one in my truck at all times.

I love pull saws.
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post #18 of 18 Old 10-17-2012, 05:45 PM
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Last year, I bought this Japanese handsaw so I could do some of the cuts I needed to do by hand when the chop saw had a line of ten people behind it.
http://www.amazon.com/Tajima-JPR-SET-Rapid-Pull-Blades/dp/B0008KLNSA/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1350509645&sr=8-6&keywords=japanese+pull+saw
It has served me quite well in both normal cuts and finer joinery despite not having a spine.
I have used the cheaper pull saws you see at Lowe's and Home Depot, and I purchased mine mainly because I couldn't find one with a kerf as thin as I wanted. This one came with two blades. The 18 TPI one I bought it for, and the 15 TPI blade it came with. It is as thick as the ones you buy around big brand stores. Works just as well.

Here is a photo in a sharpening textbook of mine showing a typical Japanese tooth Versus a western tooth.
The left set has 3 bevels. The right set has 4 bevels, and the bottom set is a western tooth.
Sorry it's blurred, bad camera


The Line below is false
The Line above is true

Last edited by Calzone; 10-17-2012 at 05:47 PM.
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