How to make a strong non-90 miter joint? - Page 2 - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
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post #21 of 38 Old 08-13-2015, 03:29 PM Thread Starter
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Half of the base to a table. There is also a center stretcher, but the point of this thread is for the corner joints. To see the finished product, go to this post: http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f13/c...-table-101786/

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post #22 of 38 Old 08-13-2015, 03:29 PM
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very nice illustrations

You are fighting physics here by wanting the joint to be structural. It's like any rectangle, or picture frame or box without a back, the joints have to carry all the loads, and they are usually not sufficient.

If this object is subjected to any lateral forces, it will fail in the joinery. A welded steel structure would be much better, but wood just doesn't have those characteristics.
If you can add a back, most of those issues will disappear, but we don't know what the object is or does or what loads it is subjected to.....or what it's orientation is in relationship to side loads... does it lay flat or upright as shown?

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
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post #23 of 38 Old 08-13-2015, 04:00 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woodnthings View Post
Y...but we don't know what the object is or does or what loads it is subjected to.....or what it's orientation is in relationship to side loads... does it lay flat or upright as shown?
Please refer to the post I referenced which shows the application. It works fine in it's current state, but I would still prefer to be able to produce a better joint for future applications.

I don't see why this joint could not be a very strong joint when coupled with a M&T. You get the benefit of the glue bond plus add'l shear capability offered by the tenon.

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post #24 of 38 Old 08-13-2015, 06:48 PM
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Looks like it would be pretty easy to drop an angled spacer into a dovetail jig and go to town...
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post #25 of 38 Old 08-13-2015, 06:56 PM
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I can see your reasoning

That's a very clean looking design for a table. In my opinion you are just asking a lot of the joinery, as I stated above. That design lends itself to welded metal far better than wood, again my opinion based on considerable experience in both woodworking and welding metal.



All you can do is use the best methods for wood joinery, they are really no different on an 90 degree angle or 80 degree, or what ever you have. Finger joints offer a lot of surface area, a mortise and tenon on an angle will be tricky to make without a special router jig, or a tilt table hollow chisel mortiser...$$$. You are still relying on slender wood components and a glue bond. You could upsize the components for more strength,but then you lose the clean design... a quandry for sure.

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
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post #26 of 38 Old 08-13-2015, 07:11 PM Thread Starter
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Perhaps a "splayed" dovetail joint is more appropriate. I don't own a DT jig, have only done a few and prefer to do them by hand anyway.

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post #27 of 38 Old 08-13-2015, 08:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiknNutz View Post
Here is a better representation of the overall design. The pieces are essentially based on a dimensional 2x6. My plan was to use a loose M&T joint, but as I've said, the angle of the joint is what has be confused on how to actually make it other than with a Festool Domino (I am not aware of any commercial knock-offs to the Domino). I do understand that a biscuit joiner would work, but am not convinced that a biscuit joint provides the desired joint strength. A custom, purpose-built jig based on a router is what comes to mind, that incorporates an angled baseplate or fixture of some sort.

Exactly the type of joint my machine shines on. All you have to figure out is what angle to cut the pieces at. Then you cut the mortise in each end. Same setting for each piece mating together. Insert the loose tenon and glue.

If you were to cut these by hand. The tenon on the end would have to be cut at the odd angle and would be limited on the length of the tenon. How to make a strong non-90 miter joint?-imageuploadedbywood-working-talk1439512267.529549.jpgHow to make a strong non-90 miter joint?-imageuploadedbywood-working-talk1439512297.176664.jpg
I cut all the joints for 6 dining chairs with this machine. It would take a life time to do all these by hand.Name:  ImageUploadedByWood Working Talk1439512483.968847.jpg
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The machine is easy to build and costs less than $45 with your router.

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post #28 of 38 Old 08-14-2015, 12:18 AM Thread Starter
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Al, I have looked at the YouTube videos (all two that I could find) and am just not seeing it. Please, I am all in if this will do what I am looking for but ya gotta show me. I only see the ends being done on the flat at right angles, not at an angle like I am hoping to achieve. Can you show me some pictures of this thing in action or the end result showing some of these off-angles? What I am not seeing is any means of adjusting either the router or the workpiece to anything but 90 degrees to each other (not counting the ability to rotate the workpiece laterally along the plane of the table). I dunno, maybe I am just not clearly explaining or showing it, but I thought I did.

Also, finding your stuff is not all that easy and I am quite computer literate. You should be including links to you stuff somewhere here unless that is against the policy here.

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post #29 of 38 Old 08-14-2015, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiknNutz View Post
Al, I have looked at the YouTube videos (all two that I could find) and am just not seeing it. Please, I am all in if this will do what I am looking for but ya gotta show me. I only see the ends being done on the flat at right angles, not at an angle like I am hoping to achieve. Can you show me some pictures of this thing in action or the end result showing some of these off-angles? What I am not seeing is any means of adjusting either the router or the workpiece to anything but 90 degrees to each other (not counting the ability to rotate the workpiece laterally along the plane of the table). I dunno, maybe I am just not clearly explaining or showing it, but I thought I did.

Also, finding your stuff is not all that easy and I am quite computer literate. You should be including links to you stuff somewhere here unless that is against the policy here.

It's done the same as if you were using the Domino. Cut the pieces and fit them together. Then on the mortise machine you make a rest that holds them in place. The router cutter or bit makes the cut on the mating sides at a right angle to the surfaces being joined. You end up with the tenon at a right angle to both pieces.

The cutting of the mortise is a matter of about 5 to 10 seconds because it's done with shallow cuts sliding between the set stops. The cut is super clean and will be very accurate. Unlike the Domino, you can use any size bit that fits the need and you don't have to buy those expensive dominos from Fe$tool.

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post #30 of 38 Old 08-14-2015, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Al B Thayer View Post
You can cut any angle within reason with my fixture. See it's my design and it works so well I like sharing it with everyone. Which includes 30 different countries and countless copies sent out.

Al
That is a slick fixture - do you have a website I can see the plans on?
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post #31 of 38 Old 08-14-2015, 10:10 AM
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That is a slick fixture - do you have a website I can see the plans on?

I just have the YouTube videos. You can see all of them by searching Al B Thayer. The plans are sold on EBay.

Thanks for the kind words.

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post #32 of 38 Old 08-14-2015, 12:03 PM Thread Starter
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Still not getting it...

Al,

I must be dense because the light bulb still has not come on. I have a couple of related questions for you still.

1) How did you cut the mortises across the width of the chair parts in the first picture? More specifically, how do you hold those pieces? I understand the mechanics of the jig, as I have built something in a similar vein. It seems those pieces would have to stand upright from the table and I don't get how you hold them in the jig you have shown. The way I understand your jig is that all pieces would be held with their widest face down, parallel to the table top.

2) How would you cut the mortise in the noted piece as shown in my second picture, noting that the joint is at a 100 degree angle? I suppose alternatively, you could have the tenon always be perpendicular to each face, but that still doesn't resolve how to hold the workpiece at a non-90 degree angle like in the third picture.
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post #33 of 38 Old 08-14-2015, 12:56 PM
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did you see this?

To make the mortise at "X" angle you just clamp it against the fixture which is set to that angle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuyRxbqFjdg

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
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post #34 of 38 Old 08-14-2015, 12:57 PM
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How to make a strong non-90 miter joint?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiknNutz View Post
Al,



I must be dense because the light bulb still has not come on. I have a couple of related questions for you still.



1) How did you cut the mortises across the width of the chair parts in the first picture? More specifically, how do you hold those pieces? I understand the mechanics of the jig, as I have built something in a similar vein. It seems those pieces would have to stand upright from the table and I don't get how you hold them in the jig you have shown. The way I understand your jig is that all pieces would be held with their widest face down, parallel to the table top.



2) How would you cut the mortise in the noted piece as shown in my second picture, noting that the joint is at a 100 degree angle? I suppose alternatively, you could have the tenon always be perpendicular to each face, but that still doesn't resolve how to hold the workpiece at a non-90 degree angle like in the third picture.

The first picture cuts were made standing the part on end. Block on one side block on the back. When you do the cuts there is very little force on the part because the cut is made 1/16 at a time. But the table travels quickly back and forth.

The second cuts were made by laying the part on the narrow end lying down. Both back legs were cut with the same setting and then just flipped so the mortise was on the outside on each side. The parts were not cut for left and right until after the mortise was cut.

Maybe I'll make some more videos with possibilities one would use to build something with. But it bugs me when you watch a video of some machine doing a joint no one uses. Panorouter man comes to mind.

Al


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post #35 of 38 Old 08-14-2015, 01:01 PM
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How to make a strong non-90 miter joint?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiknNutz View Post
Al,



I must be dense because the light bulb still has not come on. I have a couple of related questions for you still.



1) How did you cut the mortises across the width of the chair parts in the first picture? More specifically, how do you hold those pieces? I understand the mechanics of the jig, as I have built something in a similar vein. It seems those pieces would have to stand upright from the table and I don't get how you hold them in the jig you have shown. The way I understand your jig is that all pieces would be held with their widest face down, parallel to the table top.



2) How would you cut the mortise in the noted piece as shown in my second picture, noting that the joint is at a 100 degree angle? I suppose alternatively, you could have the tenon always be perpendicular to each face, but that still doesn't resolve how to hold the workpiece at a non-90 degree angle like in the third picture.

The last picture you posted is how they would be cut in the machine. The parts have the cut registered square to the bit. But after a second look it could be either way for that one.

Al



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post #36 of 38 Old 08-15-2015, 12:26 PM
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A biscuit would work for this application. Different sizes, different applications. Domino's would work as well. Dowels would work and cheaper than Domino's. One Domino equals two dowels. As spline would work but would be seen and puts you back to a biscuit.
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post #37 of 38 Old 08-15-2015, 01:35 PM Thread Starter
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I've considered a decorative spline too.

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post #38 of 38 Old 08-15-2015, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
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I've considered a decorative spline too.

You can cut those with little setup too.

The table is very nice and the mix of live edge with that base also works well. Seeing the splines on most work isn't maybe desirable but here there really aren't any rules.

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