First time biscuit jointing - advice please - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
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post #1 of 26 Old 06-11-2014, 12:51 PM Thread Starter
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First time biscuit jointing - advice please

I've made a couple of acoustic guitars as well as some pub benches so I'm not a complete newbie, but I've never used a biscuit jointer. I have 5 iroko boards, 1000 x 100 x 30mm and I want to make a larger board of 1000 x 500 x 30mm so I can then cut a shaped thwart (boat seat). Hardwood biscuit jointing with epoxy edge gluing (and lots of sash cramps + weights!) would seem like the answer, but given my dimensions, can I get some guidance on what size biscuits, what spacing and a single or double layer of biscuits? Thanks in advance.
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post #2 of 26 Old 06-11-2014, 01:22 PM
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We have an introduction section where you can say a few words about yourself. If you fill out your profile in your "User Control Panel", you can list any hobbies, experience, occupation, or if retired…from what, or other facts. You can also list your general geographical location which would be a help in answering some questions. In doing that your location will show under your username when you post.

I wouldn't use biscuits at all. Edge joint the boards so they are square and flat to the faces. Use Titebond III and just clamp together. Use cauls on top/bottom across the boards, clamped to keep all the boards flat.










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post #3 of 26 Old 06-11-2014, 02:38 PM Thread Starter
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OK Cabinetman - intro and profile sorted and thanks for your input. I used Titebond for guitar-making and it's fantastic stuff - I just didn't know it was recommended for a marine environment, nor did think that it would be able to fill. The 5 iroko boards have been thicknessed and squared but I thought that given the inevitable tiny grain gaps and tears in iroko that epoxy would fill those gaps better than aliphatic resin. The biscuit idea was to increase the glue area in a belt and braces manner. I would of course use cauls in any case. Would using biscuits weaken the joint?
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post #4 of 26 Old 06-11-2014, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by labougie View Post
OK Cabinetman - intro and profile sorted and thanks for your input. I used Titebond for guitar-making and it's fantastic stuff - I just didn't know it was recommended for a marine environment, nor did think that it would be able to fill. The 5 iroko boards have been thicknessed and squared but I thought that given the inevitable tiny grain gaps and tears in iroko that epoxy would fill those gaps better than aliphatic resin. The biscuit idea was to increase the glue area in a belt and braces manner. I would of course use cauls in any case. Would using biscuits weaken the joint?
IMO, yes. They aren't necessary, and utilize edges that should be flat and tight. You could use epoxy, as it is good if you have gaps. For well mated edges TB III would be my choice.






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post #5 of 26 Old 06-11-2014, 03:47 PM Thread Starter
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OK, so that's one firm old school opinion. Does anyone who approves of biscuit jointing have an answer to my original post? Thanks
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post #6 of 26 Old 06-11-2014, 04:04 PM
more bacon?
 
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In the application you mention, in my opinion, biscuits will offer little in structural integrity. A properly jointed long grain to long grain edge will be just fine glued with Epoxy or titebond III. If you would like to strengthen the joint anyway look into making loose tenons or a splined joint. Again IMO both are not necessary. .
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post #7 of 26 Old 06-11-2014, 05:15 PM Thread Starter
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There's no way I would trust myself to use even the longest plane to make a square edge over 1 metre, so this joint would be straight from the thicknesser on both edges. Iroko picks up a little rough from the thicknesser. Are you guys saying that Titebond or epoxy and a properly cramped edge joint is all I need?
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post #8 of 26 Old 06-11-2014, 05:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by labougie View Post
There's no way I would trust myself to use even the longest plane to make a square edge over 1 metre, so this joint would be straight from the thicknesser on both edges. Iroko picks up a little rough from the thicknesser. Are you guys saying that Titebond or epoxy and a properly cramped edge joint is all I need?
The edges need to be jointed to mate. That can be done on a jointer, or done with a handplane. A 'thicknesser' refers to a planer which surfaces sides (usually the width), and ideally, can make both surfaces parallel to each other.






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post #9 of 26 Old 06-11-2014, 05:41 PM Thread Starter
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Completely confused now. What's the difference between a jointer and a thicknesser?
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post #10 of 26 Old 06-11-2014, 06:00 PM Thread Starter
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Stupid question. Let me retire and consider
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post #11 of 26 Old 06-11-2014, 07:46 PM
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jointer vs thicknesser

Quote:
Originally Posted by labougie View Post
Stupid question. Let me retire and consider

The jointer removes material off the bottom of the board making it flat and straight.

Then with the flat side down, you use the thicknessesr/planer to remove material off the top of the board and making it a uniform thickness.

They art quite different and are used in the order above.

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
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post #12 of 26 Old 06-13-2014, 01:41 AM
more bacon?
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by labougie
Stupid question. Let me retire and consider
It Wasn't a stupid question.


Yes I am saying that titebond or epoxy applied to a properly prepared joint should work fine.
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post #13 of 26 Old 07-05-2014, 05:34 PM
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I use biscuits mainly for aligning glue ups, not for anything structural.

If you are really concerned about that join, use splines,
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post #14 of 26 Old 07-05-2014, 07:14 PM
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When building any boat or anything marine related West System Epoxy is best. Never saw a boat made with Titebond. All surfaces to be joined must be all covered with epoxy type resin in order to be waterproof.

Could someone get a letter out to Fine Woodworking and the rest of the leading mags out there and inform them that the biscuit jointer they use and recommend no longer adds strength to a joint. I now realize after reading threads like these I have for 30 years been using my biscuits the wrong way. Who would have ever thought you can cut a slot in the wood quite a bit wider than the biscuit and it would still aid in aligning the boards.

Lamello must be closing its doors as we speak.

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post #15 of 26 Old 07-10-2014, 07:51 PM
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first time biscuit jointing

I would have to agree with Mr. Al. A biscuit cutter & biscuits would work for join Alignment. And if its going in the water, regardless of the type of wood, is still going to need to be waterproofed. Envitably, if it doesn't suit ya, don't use them. And also, the only STUPID question is the one ya don't ask! good luck, & be safe!
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post #16 of 26 Old 08-19-2014, 08:13 AM
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Axminster Hobby Series AWEPT106 Planer Thicknesser I believe this can also be adjusted to use a a surface planer.
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post #17 of 26 Old 08-19-2014, 01:08 PM
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yeah... why wouldnt you use biscuits? Dont currently own one and dont want to drop the bucks for a 1 time use might be a reasonable answer... but thats about it...

Even so, you could use a router, though you could also do a nice tongue joint if you can obtain the proper bit.

Wood glue on a boat? I know titebond 3 is waterproof... but even that has limits, I dont suggest you submerge your boat seat or you may have bigger issues, but...

I mean, telling the guy to do a box joint would be stupid, some biscuits and waterproof epoxy is very reasonable and quite prudent IMO.
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post #18 of 26 Old 08-19-2014, 08:46 PM
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If you have a biscuit jointer and feel more comfortable using it why not, don't let these guys intimidate you. There will likely come a time when you feel confident enough to do your glue up without biscuits, that will be your decision when you are ready. Just remember there are a lot of guys around here with the "older I get the better I was" syndrome.

Wise men speak because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something -Plato

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post #19 of 26 Old 08-20-2014, 12:35 AM
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Yeah, don't listen to the naysayers, biscuits with fine. That don't add overmuch to the strength of the joint, and they aren't a substitute for a properly joined edge, but for alignment they work fine. As far as what size to use, whatever size is best for the size of board. . is recommend against doing a double row of biscuits though, I thing that would cause more alignment issues and negatively impact strength. As far as glue goes, I like titebond3 for outdoor stuff though a marine grade epoxy would work fine
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post #20 of 26 Old 08-20-2014, 09:35 AM
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agreed, edge to edge joinery properly done is very acceptable for interior work. however in exterior applications, with expansion and contraction playing a much, much larger role in the game, why not increase glue surface area and use a proper marine grade glue.

biscuits are good at doing that. but a spline or tongue and groove would be better yet, imho.
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