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post #21 of 44 Old 02-22-2016, 10:41 PM Thread Starter
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Wow. Did not want to start a fight. It's just a clamp question. Everyone has their own opinion and that's what makes the world go around. If we all thought the same way, the world would be a boring place. As long as there was no funny stuff in the glueing and clamping tests that that guy did. I have to say I learned something. I also learned that when joining boards with biscuits, don't use one every 6 inches on a 6' board, and don't put glue on the biscuits, and have plenty of clamps. My biscuits started to swell before I finished putting them in and I only had 2 long clamps. Luckily I had drilled pocket holes in between all the biscuits so I clamped it and tightened the screws and had to work my way down the board. I made it but just barely. Best lessons are learned.
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post #22 of 44 Old 02-23-2016, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by raqumup View Post
Wow. Did not want to start a fight. it was people sharing opinions I also learned that when joining boards with biscuits, don't use one every 6 inches on a 6' board, and don't put glue on the biscuits, and have plenty of clamps. no glue? why not? My biscuits started to swell before I finished putting them in and I only had 2 long clamps. Luckily I had drilled pocket holes in between all the biscuits so I clamped it and tightened the screws and had to work my way down the board. biscuits, pocket holes, glue, and clamps? I made it but just barely. Best lessons are learned. what were you gluing that required this technique? you may have had more jointing methods than were required, making the task more difficult.

.....
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post #23 of 44 Old 02-23-2016, 07:46 AM
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Agreed!

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Originally Posted by raqumup View Post
Wow. Did not want to start a fight. It's just a clamp question. Everyone has their own opinion and that's what makes the world go around. If we all thought the same way, the world would be a boring place. As long as there was no funny stuff in the glueing and clamping tests that that guy did. I have to say I learned something. I also learned that when joining boards with biscuits, don't use one every 6 inches on a 6' board, and don't put glue on the biscuits, and have plenty of clamps. My biscuits started to swell before I finished putting them in and I only had 2 long clamps. Luckily I had drilled pocket holes in between all the biscuits so I clamped it and tightened the screws and had to work my way down the board. I made it but just barely. Best lessons are learned.
What you did was Total Overkill. If you want to glue 2 6 ft boards all you need is glue and several clamps across it, no bisquits, no pocket holes and screws.

Biscuits are for alignment, not strength. They must be set in the slots evenly AND the slots must be dead on level from the same side of all the boards. A spot of glue is all you need, if any, and work from one side down the length. Then glue the other edge and assemble. The few times I've used them assembly was a bit of a "panic", so rarely use them.

I don't use pocket screws either, but if you believe the ads, thats all you need, maybe a thin bead of glue.

To keep the boards level you can use a caul, which is a straight edged or just barely curved board on both side of the boards and clamped together to keep pressure on the surfaces and align the edges. The better the boards are aligned, the less planing or sanding you'll have to do afterward.
http://www.mikes-woodwork.com/Cauls.htm

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)

Last edited by woodnthings; 02-23-2016 at 08:15 AM.
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post #24 of 44 Old 02-23-2016, 10:01 PM
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Looks like Jorgenson 3/4" with black pipe. Good choice. Try not to be tempted by sale prices on other brands now that you have chosen. Each brand seems to have a different height and mismatches can create difficulties. I see they are also the same lengths. That can pay dividends as in the last Woodenthing's picture in post 3.
With pipe clamps you WANT 'mismatches' if you can help it as this lets you very easily clamp in more than one direction at the same time.

1/2" pipe will easily go under the 3/4" stuff and work fine.


The Pony I-beam clams are even better as they can either be laid down flat on the bottom or stood up right on the top when clamping in two different directions at one time. The same exact size clamp can have either a 'low' or 'high' profile depending on how you tip it.

Example that did not come from youtube:


In that picture I am clamping in three different directions with absolutely no problems...


My clamps look really 'well used' because they are. :smile3:
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post #25 of 44 Old 02-23-2016, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by raqumup View Post
Wow. Did not want to start a fight.




and don't put glue on the biscuits, and have plenty of clamps. My biscuits started to swell before I finished putting them in and I only had 2 long clamps.
You did not start any sort of 'fight' friend. You got good advice from Rebelwork. Someone that actually does this stuff for a living and knows what the hell he is talking about. (you can lump Leo G in that group as well)


You ARE supposed to glue the biscuits.
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post #26 of 44 Old 02-23-2016, 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted by woodnthings View Post
Biscuits are for alignment, not strength.



They must be set in the slots evenly AND the slots must be dead on level from the same side of all the boards. A spot of glue is all you need, if any, and work from one side down the length. Then glue the other edge and assemble. The few times I've used them assembly was a bit of a "panic", so rarely use them.

I actually 'believe' the part about you only using them a 'few times'...





The rest of what you said (most of it anyway) has not been my experience at all.
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post #27 of 44 Old 02-24-2016, 02:14 AM
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Originally Posted by OnealWoodworking View Post
With pipe clamps you WANT 'mismatches' if you can help it as this lets you very easily clamp in more than one direction at the same time.

1/2" pipe will easily go under the 3/4" stuff and work fine.


The Pony I-beam clams are even better as they can either be laid down flat on the bottom or stood up right on the top when clamping in two different directions at one time. The same exact size clamp can have either a 'low' or 'high' profile depending on how you tip it.

Example that did not come from youtube:


In that picture I am clamping in three different directions with absolutely no problems...


My clamps look really 'well used' because they are. :smile3:

How you doing Oneal? Yes there are always exceptions because of the large variety of the work that is done. The person that I gave advice to was building their there collection of clamps and made a nice rack for themselves. I wanted to give him "props" with an encouraging word.


The shop that I ran had a large variety of clamps including sets of different lengths of both 1/2" and 3/4" Pony pipe clamps, sets of Jorgenson HD I beam clamps (not called pony), LD Jorgenson band clamps, HD canvas band clamps, C clamps, F style clamps, hand screws ... Yes it is nice to have variety. We became quite efficient with our glue ups and streamlined our methods out of necessity. Storage of the clamped up projects was an issue, we had to adapt. Standard lengths helped here to save space as we used a standing stacking method.


We were fortunate to have many large FLAT workbenches, glue up tables, and extension tables. Cover with butcher paper, glue, clamp, square assembly, move to temporary storage area, remove clamps, move frames, doors, etc. to regular storage, clamps back to racks, or use. You know, work flow pattern.


Fortunately was able to do most work in the shop and rarely had to work under the conditions shown in your photo. You got to do what you have to do. I do see that yours are well used and you don't buy junk. Professional stuff that has to earn its keep, not act as ornamentation.

Last edited by Old Skhool; 02-24-2016 at 02:34 AM.
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post #28 of 44 Old 02-24-2016, 07:39 AM Thread Starter
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OK, I said that people are sharing their opinions, I did use glue, I just figured out on my own that yes I did go overkill with different ways of joining the boards, I'm glad I had the pocket holes because I only had 2 clamps so the helped with my mistake. This is my first cabinet and I am learning a lot. I meant no glue directly on the biscuit because it took too long and they started to swell before I could finish, but also I used too many so there were several things I did wrong. I like using biscuits. As you say they help keep the boards aligned and less sanding. Best lessons are mistakes, and you won't learn unless you try. I realize some people hate pocket holes, I like them. Now not to say as my woodworking improves and I get more experience, that's not to say I will grow to dislike pocket holes and maybe biscuits, but that's for me to decide for myself. I do live the fact that all of you are so passionate about wood working and share experiences, mistakes, things that worked well. That's what keeps places like this forum alive and it's great. Thank you all for your thoughts
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post #29 of 44 Old 02-24-2016, 07:57 AM
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In a perfect world all you have to do is clamp simple flat panels. In reality you often have to clamp irregular shaped items or force a bend laminating an arch. This is where you can bend the pipes on clamps.
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post #30 of 44 Old 02-24-2016, 11:35 AM
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Questions for O'Neal

Is this a dedicated face frame clamping setup? If so, do you have more than one for multiple door frames for quantity production? Can you set them aside and clamp others while waiting for the glue to dry or is this a one at a time operation? I see a "right angle corner to register the set up and do you have to check for square afterwards?
Looks like you have recessed the flat clamps in the top, a cool idea!


The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
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post #31 of 44 Old 02-24-2016, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by woodnthings View Post
Is this a dedicated face frame clamping setup? If so, do you have more than one for multiple door frames for quantity production? Can you set them aside and clamp others while waiting for the glue to dry or is this a one at a time operation? I see a "right angle corner to register the set up and do you have to check for square afterwards?
Looks like you have recessed the flat clamps in the top, a cool idea!


It does remind me of a "Face Frame Table" except in a horizontal position w/o the pneumatic cylinders. I too like the squaring feature.


I've always used 2 Jorgies (HD bar clamp) to do what I think I am seeing. The clamps are placed on a flat surface, tightened, then check the corner to corner measurement. (Frame must be tight against the bars so as to not glue in distortion)


Very fast, easy, and storable. The corner to corner often requires no adjustment, but if it does slightly angle 1 or both clamps and while retightening watch for square. Next. Am I missing something?
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post #32 of 44 Old 02-24-2016, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by raqumup View Post
Wow. Did not want to start a fight. It's just a clamp question. Everyone has their own opinion and that's what makes the world go around. If we all thought the same way, the world would be a boring place. As long as there was no funny stuff in the glueing and clamping tests that that guy did. I have to say I learned something. I also learned that when joining boards with biscuits, don't use one every 6 inches on a 6' board, and don't put glue on the biscuits, and have plenty of clamps. My biscuits started to swell before I finished putting them in and I only had 2 long clamps. Luckily I had drilled pocket holes in between all the biscuits so I clamped it and tightened the screws and had to work my way down the board. I made it but just barely. Best lessons are learned.
Clamping can make you or break you. I never take clamping lightly. It has to be taken seriously every time you think of building a piece or furniture or cabinet.Often over looked and easily spotted in a build. Understanding which glue, time of glue up and what can be accomplished with the amount of time given with each assembly makes a project a show piece or a closet failure.....
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post #33 of 44 Old 02-24-2016, 08:05 PM
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And some assembly no glue at all....
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post #34 of 44 Old 02-24-2016, 08:38 PM Thread Starter
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Nice stuff rebelwork.
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post #35 of 44 Old 02-24-2016, 08:52 PM
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I've had the set of aluminum clamps (with the threaded rods) shown for probably over 30 years. I should make another set. I have a number of different length sets of threaded rod to vary the clamp size from about 4" square up to 3 X 3 feet. Work great on not only picture frame type clamping, but also as shown. Snug the hex nuts down, then check corners with a square. Any slight out of square can be adjusted by loosening/tightening different corners. For the curious, 2nd pic is finished product. :smile3:
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Alexis de Tocqueville was a very smart man.
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post #36 of 44 Old 02-24-2016, 11:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Old Skhool View Post
How you doing Oneal? Yes there are always exceptions because of the large variety of the work that is done. The person that I gave advice to was building their there collection of clamps and made a nice rack for themselves. I wanted to give him "props" with an encouraging word.




Fortunately was able to do most work in the shop and rarely had to work under the conditions shown in your photo. You got to do what you have to do. I do see that yours are well used and you don't buy junk. Professional stuff that has to earn its keep, not act as ornamentation.
You just dogged the wiz out of my favorite workbench. I spent a metric crap load of time on that and you just dogged the piss out of it.

''under the work conditions shown in you photo"

(I am not saying that you are wrong in that assessment and I am not any sort of butthurt about it)



That bench is 'simi' glue resistant, solid as a rock and square as hell and you just went pee all over it! LOL!

If you got tips on how I can improve what I got there - I got no problem with that and welcome the advice.






Depending on what 'directions' that I 'need' to push in and the kind of material I am working on AND how 'square' it needs to be when finished - I got other clamps and tables as well.




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post #37 of 44 Old 02-24-2016, 11:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woodnthings
Is this a dedicated face frame clamping setup? If so, do you have more than one for multiple door frames for quantity production? Can you set them aside and clamp others while waiting for the glue to dry or is this a one at a time operation? I see a "right angle corner to register the set up and do you have to check for square afterwards? Looks like you have recessed the flat clamps in the top, a cool idea!
I don't see why he would need a different sized jig for every sized door. As long as the door fits on the base he should be able to glue it.
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post #38 of 44 Old 02-25-2016, 05:29 PM
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Where did I mention "different sizes "...?

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Is this a dedicated face frame clamping setup? If so, do you have more than one for multiple door frames for quantity production? Can you set them aside and clamp others while waiting for the glue to dry or is this a one at a time operation? I see a "right angle corner to register the set up and do you have to check for square afterwards?
Looks like you have recessed the flat clamps in the top, a cool idea!
Different sizes? No, more than one.... they could all be the same size as long as the largest frame fits. If there was only one in a production cabinet shop that would not make much sense....time is money.


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I don't see why he would need a different sized jig for every sized door. As long as the door fits on the base he should be able to glue it.

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)

Last edited by woodnthings; 02-25-2016 at 08:02 PM.
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post #39 of 44 Old 02-25-2016, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by woodnthings
Different sizes? No, more than one.... they could all be the same size as long as the largest frame fits. If there was only one in a production cabinet shop that would not make much sense....time is money.
I'm sure he had more than one jig, but it would only require one.
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post #40 of 44 Old 03-01-2016, 11:20 PM
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I asked whether there was more than one ........



A cabinet shop of any significance would have multiple face frame jigs to save time in production.... just my opinion, but I never got an answer.

Is this gluing setup part of the cabinet shops assembly room?


You wouldn't find this in a home shop, but it is impressive.

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)

Last edited by woodnthings; 03-01-2016 at 11:23 PM.
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