Breadboard ends - Page 2 - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
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post #21 of 32 Old 08-05-2019, 10:37 PM
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OK, so i am convinced that longer tenons are the answer. Woodnthings idea of making the mortise by glue-ups rather that trying to chisel out a deep hole. So, OK, I am good to this point.
So as I see it the tenons would probably have to be floating tenons because the table top is already made and a board stretcher wont stretch the top that much. So we have a glued up mortise which is a great time and aggrevation saver and now floating tenons which is also a great time saver

How deep would the floating tenons have to go into the table?

BTW, I think we owe this solution to Jay White Cloud due to his in-sistance and per-sistance which keep this thread alive

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Last edited by Tony B; 08-05-2019 at 10:47 PM.
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post #22 of 32 Old 08-06-2019, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
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Question.................I have made only few BB tables. I never pinned using the draw bore method. My question is : If yu draw bore you will be putting a large mount of pressure on that joint. Would that negate the use of elongated holes if the joint is "fixed" from the drawing of the piece?

Thanks in advance
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No in soft wood you only offset the holes just less than 1/16". Once the cheeks are engaged, at that point the pin will bend as it goes through, acting as a clamp. Remember to allow some space, IOW make the mortise just a tad deeper than the tenon so it doesn't bottom out.



No, there isn't enough pressure to prevent lateral movement.
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post #23 of 32 Old 08-18-2019, 08:16 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks everyone for this really great discussion. Iím getting back to it today, and Iíll probably do a combination of all of the above.

First, Iíll leave 4Ē shoulders on the breadboard end with no tenon.
The tenons will be 1/2Ē thick
I think Iím happy to narrow the ends to 8Ē, which actually mirrors the width of the outer boards on the top.
Iíll think about which of the proposed methods to get longer tenons deeper into the end works best with my limitations.
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post #24 of 32 Old 08-18-2019, 09:30 AM
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For cheap and cheerful, consider reinforcing the joint with some 5/8" diameter rebar, akin to wooden dowels. I'd go as deep as you can. Ideally, the holes would be slots in the width direction to allow for movement.

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post #25 of 32 Old 08-18-2019, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Dylan JC Buffum View Post
Thanks everyone for this really great discussion. Iím getting back to it today, and Iíll probably do a combination of all of the above.

First, Iíll leave 4Ē shoulders on the breadboard end with no tenon.
The tenons will be 1/2Ē thick
I think Iím happy to narrow the ends to 8Ē, which actually mirrors the width of the outer boards on the top.
Iíll think about which of the proposed methods to get longer tenons deeper into the end works best with my limitations.
Hi Dylan,

As to this current post here...???...I might not be understanding your intent well enough.

"No tenon" and a longer "tongue" (which is still a kind of tenon of course) I would not recommend at all!!!

If a BB...whether a traditional wide example that is the standard (6" to 12" on average) or the more common (aka modern) example of the narrow ones is used and the "tongue" is too long this tends to cause the BB to gape, warp and/or split in half over time...

As to, "... longer tenons deeper into the end works best with my limitations..." again you really don't have too many limitations stopping you from following the common and proven methods for this type/style of table.

I look forward to your next email...Let me know if I can expand on anything and/or just add it to the CAD in the shared file?

j
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post #26 of 32 Old 08-18-2019, 08:41 PM
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As my previous post stated ....

I am on the look out for an easier faster way to make traditional joinery. I really liked this approach to the legs on the Roubo workbench. I'm still pondering the mortises and tenons on bread board ends which I think could be made using a similar built up technique rather than chopping them in the traditional manner:

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)

Last edited by woodnthings; 08-18-2019 at 08:45 PM.
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post #27 of 32 Old 08-18-2019, 09:58 PM
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Originally Posted by woodnthings View Post
...I'm still pondering the mortises and tenons on bread board ends which I think could be made using a similar built up technique rather than chopping them in the traditional manner:
Interesting "reinvention of the wheel" for such a bench and there are traditional methods similar to this "hell joint" in furniture (Asian again) but once your down this "rabbit hole" it stops being a bread board end method and becomes something else entirely. Not to say it doesn't have merit or value if one likes "re-thinking" what is already known to "work" just to do something different and experiment...
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post #28 of 32 Old 10-14-2019, 08:18 AM Thread Starter
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Next step: how to drill the dowel holes?

Friends,

Thanks to everyone for all your incredibly helpful suggestions. Photos below.

So my next step is to figure out how to drill the holes for the dowels to pin the ends in place. I know that the hole in the tenon should be about 1/32" closer to the shoulder than the hole in the breadboard end, so that the pins draw the joint together. I also know the center hole should be a tight fit, while the two (or four) pins out on the edges need to be widened to allow for the top to expand and contract.

First question:

So, what's the process you use to do this? Do you build a jig? Do you start with pilot holes? I can bring the ends to my drill press, but I'm going to have to use a handheld drill on the top, or else build a cart on wheels to move the press around.

Second question:

Where should I position the holes relative to the shoulder? The tenons are a hair under 5/8" thick, and are 1 3/4" deep. I have a pile of 3/8" softwood dowels, but I also ordered some 1/4" and 3/8" walnut. The top and ends are made of a very soft wood.

Remember, this joint is already fairly weak. Y'all's suggestions above really helped. I did a mock up and whacked it a bunch with a mallet and while it loosened and dented, it didn't break like my earlier mock-ups. But I still want to maximize strength here.

Assuming I use the 3/8" dowels and center them, that leaves 11/16" of end grain on the outside of the dowel through the tenon, and the same long grain along the edge of the mortise. Would the 1/4" dowels be stronger by virtue of leaving more material in the tenons?? I'm afraid with his massive top those tiny dowels will look silly.
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post #29 of 32 Old 10-14-2019, 08:26 AM Thread Starter
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Sorry that last photo came out upside down. Not sure how to fix that.

As you can see, I'm planning to put rails under the ends for added strength. My current plan is to route a 1/4" groove into the underside of the top and ends to recess the rail, and do through-pins on the top and glue them firmly in place. Then on the breadboard ends, the groove will be a little wider to allow for movement, and I'll have a dowel pin coming in from below, but not glued to the end and dry fitted instead with some room for movement. Basically, the ends will just be sitting on top of the rails. This will add strength for downward pressure, but not if someone decided to lift the table from the ends.

I may also end up trimming the ends down based on the size of the space this table is going in. My in-laws are building a house, and I'm not sure yet how large the dining space will be. Right now the table is 106" long, and 45" wide.

Last edited by Dylan JC Buffum; 10-14-2019 at 08:28 AM.
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post #30 of 32 Old 10-14-2019, 09:09 AM
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The pins need to be least 1" from the edge. Which brings up my previous point that the tenons are way too short for a bb this wide. General rule of thumb is 1/3 the width of the bb. 4" is quite a deep tenon, but the bb is quite wide!

That said, with support, I still wouldn't go less than 2 1/2" deep. That would mean more work to widen the tongue and a table about 2" shorter, but if it were me, I would do it.

Personally I would reduce the bb to 8". With 2 1/2" deep tenons, I think it will be structurally more sound and eliminate the need for the rails.
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post #31 of 32 Old 10-14-2019, 09:20 AM Thread Starter
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The pins need to be least 1" from the edge. Which brings up my previous point that the tenons are way too short for a bb this wide. General rule of thumb is 1/3 the width of the bb. 4" is quite a deep tenon, but the bb is quite wide!

That said, with support, I still wouldn't go less than 2 1/2" deep. That would mean more work to widen the tongue and a table about 2" shorter, but if it were me, I would do it.

Personally I would reduce the bb to 8". With 2 1/2" deep tenons, I think it will be structurally more sound and eliminate the need for the rails.
I see what you’re saying. That would give me more material around the dowels, and solve question #2 above. I’ll take it under advisement, though I just spent the weekend getting the shoulders to sit nice and flush, so I’d be sorry to undo that work.

Last edited by Dylan JC Buffum; 10-14-2019 at 09:31 AM.
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post #32 of 32 Old 02-27-2020, 10:59 AM Thread Starter
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Update

Here’s what I ended up with. Probably not as deep as they should be, but I think they’re pretty strong.





I also put some 1.5” X 1” rails along the underside of the edges of the top to give extra strength. (Not pictured) The rails are glued and pinned to the body of the top, but just dry fitted into recesses under the breadboards. As the top expands and contracts the rails can move, but they add some structure for those times when kids decide to pretend the end of the table is a diving board.
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