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post #1 of 27 Old 08-01-2019, 01:41 PM Thread Starter
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Breadboard ends

After a bit of a hiatus, I’m getting back to this table project from this older thread : https://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f5/t...9/#post2058461



I’m trying to sort out the joinery for the breadboard ends. The top is 1.5” thick, and fairly soft wood. I have two boards I was planning to use for the ends, 48” x 12” x 1.5”

I did a mock up of the ends on slightly thicker stock, using a tenon of 3/4” thick, and 2” deep. That left >3/8” walls on the mortise. The end board was 12” wide. I pinned the tenon with 3 dowels. I took a rubber mallet and gave it one strong whack, and the mortise walls tore right off the edge of the end board.



No good. Way too much leverage.

So I’m wondering how to address this?

(1) I could make the tenon pretty thin, about 3/8”, and leave the mortise walls closer to 5/8”. I think that might be pretty ugly, frankly. And I’m not sure it will suffice. How thick would you think it needs to be?

(2) I probably ought to make the end boards narrower, but I like the super-wide boards if I can make it work. If I could make the mortise deeper, that might help. But my tool choices are limited; I’m doing this with a router (no table saw). That means I can only get about 2” deep with a half-inch bit, or about 3” deep with a 3/4” bit.

(3) I could do some kind of under-support. The spine of the trestle table is already made, and I don’t have a longer board to make a longer spine. I’d have to just put some kind of rails underneath, which I’m not really keen on.

Thoughts and suggestions?
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post #2 of 27 Old 08-01-2019, 01:46 PM Thread Starter
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I should mention, so far thereís no hardware in this piece. Just traditional joinery and glue. Iíd like to keep it that way.

Underneath:

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post #3 of 27 Old 08-01-2019, 02:06 PM
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Well one thing I think when using the table I don't think anyone will be smacking the breadboard with a mallet. Still there is a certain amount of weakness with a breadboard end. It's one reason the breadboard end is usually three or four inches wide. It makes for less leverage that way. You could counter some of weakness by not running the mortise for the tenon all the way to the end. You could stop about an inch from the end and shorten the width of the tenon. By having the wood solid on the ends it would make it more difficult to break it.
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post #4 of 27 Old 08-01-2019, 02:07 PM Thread Starter
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Another test piece split with a solid whack...



This one has a 1.25Ē x 3/8Ē tenon, and the board is 6Ē wide.

What am I not getting about this?
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post #5 of 27 Old 08-01-2019, 02:11 PM Thread Starter
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Youíd hope nobodyís whacking the end of the table with a mallet. But this table is destined for a house with kids. Itís going to have to stand up to heavy bookbags being dropped on it, ten-year olds who think itís a good idea to try back flips off of it, and all sorts of other abuse.

Iíll try not doing a through tenon, and see how that works out.
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post #6 of 27 Old 08-01-2019, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylan JC Buffum View Post
Youíd hope nobodyís whacking the end of the table with a mallet. But this table is destined for a house with kids. Itís going to have to stand up to heavy bookbags being dropped on it, ten-year olds who think itís a good idea to try back flips off of it, and all sorts of other abuse.

Iíll try not doing a through tenon, and see how that works out.
The biggest problem you have with the design is the width of the breadboard end. The wider you make the board the more leverage it will have. If it has to be that wide I would recommend screwing a piece of steel to the underside in the center of it. This would prevent the board from bending down enough to break. The center of a breadboard end is glued anyway so there wouldn't be any wood movement issues with a piece of steel there.
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post #7 of 27 Old 08-01-2019, 04:17 PM
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I recently saw a magazine article about a stunning table with breadboard ends. In this case, the top had two narrow gaps down the middle, running the length of the table between the breadboard ends.

The breadboard ends were affixed to the top using the traditional tongue-and-groove (mortice and tenon?) method, with pinned dowels holding the breadboard to the top, and other dowels fitted through slots to allow wood movement.

-> The important innovation was that the fixed dowels were near the edges of the top, and the dowels with slots were placed towards the middle. The two sides of the top expand and contract towards the gaps in the middle. Obviously the gap widths vary over time, but the sides of the table stay aligned with the sides of the breadboards.

This is a very cool design idea for tables, but it may not be suitable for cutting boards. ;-)

It was a very elegant looking table, with an elegant solution to wood movement. I looked, but can't find the magazine with the article. The magazine could be very old, not necessarily a current issue.

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post #8 of 27 Old 08-01-2019, 09:46 PM
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First off, Steve is right on about the width of the breadboard end being way too long. Also about not running the mortise out to the end.

Next, i always follow the rule of a mortise/tenon joint beong 1/3 to 1/2 the total thickness of the top. Since a breadboard table top puts more leverage on the joint than a typical mortise/tenon joint, I use the 1/3 figure. That would mean in your case, make the mortise/tenon 1/3 the thickness which would be 1/2" thick. The tenons in this style of top would be much stronger than the mortised breadboard end. so the 1/2" thick tenon should suffice.

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post #9 of 27 Old 08-02-2019, 06:50 AM
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what steve and tony said. and, the tenons should be longer. i would run them 3-4 inches onto the 12" wide breadboard. fyi, you can do this with splines if you cant afford to lose the table length.
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post #10 of 27 Old 08-02-2019, 08:19 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimPa View Post
what steve and tony said. and, the tenons should be longer. i would run them 3-4 inches onto the 12" wide breadboard. fyi, you can do this with splines if you cant afford to lose the table length.
Can you explain?

I’m somewhat limited in the depth of the mortise, because I don’t have a table saw. I’m making the mortise with a router table. If I’m using a 1/2” bit, the best depth I can get is about 2”. Unless someone knows someplace to get a longer bit?

Or I could make the mortise deeper by hand. that would be an enormous job and I don’t think I have the right hand tools for it.

EDIT: Are you thinking something like a row of dowels sticking out from the end of the top, and into the edgegrain of the end boards, basically extending the tenon? How do you account for wood movement? The same was you do with the pins, by elongating the holes in the end board?

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post #11 of 27 Old 08-02-2019, 08:39 AM
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exactly, something dowel like, or domino like.

you can drill in a line of succession with a 1/2" bit, then clean out with a chisel. then make a spline out of long-grain wood to fit. you can do this several times across the end of the table. then drill up from the bottom and dowel/pin the spline into place.
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post #12 of 27 Old 08-02-2019, 10:29 AM
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What are the forces on the joint?

If you have a knowledge of physics, you could make a force diagram showing what's in tension, compression and shear. I believe from limited knowledge that when you press down at the tip of the breadboard, that the joint at the top wants to open up..... from tension. Continued downward pressure wants to pull the tenons out of the mortise. The lower joint acts like a hinge, being in compression and allowing the top joint to open further until the tenon itself fractures.

I don't think the depth of the tenon is super critical because the thickness hasn't changed, only the depth into the mortise which beyond some "ideal" length is irrelevant. So, what's the ideal length?
Probably the 1/3 rule is as close as you need. What's the ideal thickness of the tenon? Again, the 1/3 rule seems reasonable.


Here's the biggest issue as I see it. Once the top joint fails, all is lost. Also that joint is not continuously glued, only at the center, so no strength from that. Typically, dowels or pins draw bored or not secure the BB end to the top. The dowels have to fail before the joint can open up, not very likely. The wood may split out before the dowels shear off.

This is a complex set of simple forces acting when a load (heavy) is added to the end. A person or child may want to sit on the end and that would be a heavy load, depending.... Putting a steel reinforcing plate on the bottom joint won't do that much because it's already in compression. Steel dowels running into the ends may help? Steel of any type would not be a traditional approach, however. In this case, the wood is a softwood, Pine, which has less strength than Oak or other hardwoods, compounding the issue.

Hardwood "runners" running lengthwise, which are "notched" into the trestles would give added support to the ends. They wouldn't be that visible if tapered on the ends.

I don't know about this solution, but if you are just looking to extend the length of the top, what about making the BB ends with the grain running down the length like the top? Then you can safely glue them on without concern for wood movement across the width. I donno?
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post #13 of 27 Old 08-02-2019, 11:45 AM
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With the breadboard end extended way beyond normal, and the fact that it is pine tells that this particular aspect of the job is doomed from the beginning. The problem is not with the tenon strength, but rather the long grain in the pine breadboard end that is rather weak to begin with. The long grain, especially in pine is weak. Couple that with the extended length of the end piece gives out of the ordinary leverage.
Steel dowels could possibly work if they were extended almost to the end of the breadboard and well into the the rest of the end of the table This would give some strength to the end with more wood surrounding a dowel than around a tenon. BUT, you will have to allow for expansion/contraction of the table top and that would require the removal of more wood
Then there is the drilling of the blind dowel holes in the end piece and have them perfectly lined up both horizontally and vertically.
I think u have to seriously consider shortening the length of the ends.

OR

The best most practical solution is by Bill - Woodnthings above: "Hardwood 'runners' running lengthwise, which are "notched" into the trestles would give added support to the ends. They wouldn't be that visible if tapered on the ends."

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post #14 of 27 Old 08-02-2019, 05:15 PM
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First off, that is one beautiful table.

Agree with Tony that tenon thickness should be 1/2". You might like to think about narrowing your breadboard end down to 4", 5" max, Breadboards are not always done with one long mortise/tenon , or what I'd call a stub tenon. I've done a few tables that have a 4" wide through tenon centered. Given a 4" breadboard, you'd need to mill a 4" plus tenon into the end of your table, then trim it so that only the center 4" was left at 4" deep, rest at 2", which is your router bit length. Center tenon should be glued and wedged, no glue elsewhere but for a little on any pegs as needed. One table I did was 34" wide and I never pegged anything, the center through mortise/tenon, glued, was plenty of attachment. Your 48" table probably calls for some pegs though. Think of how a good passage door is made, one stout glued mortise and tenon and a shorter stub tenon.

Some have chosen to do multiple tenons , 3" long or more, maybe 5 across a 48" wide table. Just use an odd number so that one mortise/tenon is dead center and is the only glued one. The other tenons should be undersized in their mortise to allow for movement. 3" mortise, 2.75 tenon, pegged in center. Btw, you can machine the breadboard end from both sides for a through tenon, so 4 inches is doable, even more with some handwork. If you chose to add other, deeper tenons, a drill and some hand chiseling will get you deeper then 2", and you'd have the walls of your routed mortise to use as a guide for chiseling.

Hope this was understandable, and good luck with your project.
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post #15 of 27 Old 08-04-2019, 01:17 PM
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Great Job Dylan!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylan JC Buffum View Post
...After a bit of a hiatus, I’m getting back to this table project ...
Hey Dylan,

I wondered what happened to you...LOL...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylan JC Buffum View Post
I should mention, so far there’s no hardware in this piece. Just traditional joinery and glue. I’d like to keep it that way...]
Great to get this update and freaking outstanding work...!!!...you are to be commended for keeping it "real" and only using traditional joinery methods...That is simply excellent!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylan JC Buffum View Post
...I took a rubber mallet and gave it one strong whack, and the mortise walls tore right off the edge of the end board. No good. Way too much leverage. So I’m wondering how to address this? ...
Excellent...!!!

I love it when someone new to the craft is wise enough to use empirical (aka traditional!) testing methods to see what the joinery has to teach in the way of: "...where I'm I weak at..."

Simply brilliant and a good way to take 100 years worth of "leaning elbows" and "little hanging fingers" to test a joint's durability!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylan JC Buffum View Post
...(1) I could make the tenon pretty thin, about 3/8”, and leave the mortise walls closer to 5/8”. I think that might be pretty ugly, frankly. And I’m not sure it will suffice. How thick would you think it needs to be? ...
Good...I concur.

Same failure would most likely take place...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylan JC Buffum View Post
...(2) I probably ought to make the end boards narrower, but I like the super-wide boards if I can make it work. If I could make the mortise deeper, that might help. But my tool choices are limited; I’m doing this with a router (no table saw). That means I can only get about 2” deep with a half-inch bit, or about 3” deep with a 3/4” bit. ...
I agree fully on the longer tennon...and "poppy-cock" to you not having the tools...??!!!???......You own a set of chisels don't you?

This is simple hand joinery work that does not take that long to do at all...For a table your size and scope, perhaps a couple hours at most after the layout has been done and checked twice...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylan JC Buffum View Post
...(3) I could do some kind of under-support. The spine of the trestle table is already made, and I don’t have a longer board to make a longer spine. I’d have to just put some kind of rails underneath, which I’m not really keen on.

Thoughts and suggestions?
...
Well that's not necessary...

In the "King's Table" (aka the large Harvest tables often found in castle halls there kitchens and such places) these Bread Board could be as wide as 12" or more where such tables exist. I have had the pleasure of building a few...

There is simply no need for "steel cleats" ...hardware... or making the end board thinner or narrower...IF(?)...a traditional version of the table is sought, so any advise in this regard is simply bogus and/or aimed at a modern "faux" version of such tables.

Way too many folks out here in the "modern" woodworking world are either trying to "re-invent the wheel" when traditional methods have been with us for millenia...and WORKING!

(Please note: I'm only taking the time to read fully your reply's Dylan and quickly scanning other posts...I simple don't have the time...)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylan JC Buffum View Post
Can you explain?

I’m somewhat limited in the depth of the mortise, because I don’t have a table saw. I’m making the mortise with a router table. If I’m using a 1/2” bit, the best depth I can get is about 2”. Unless someone knows someplace to get a longer bit?

Or I could make the mortise deeper by hand. that would be an enormous job and I don’t think I have the right hand tools for it.

EDIT: Are you thinking something like a row of dowels sticking out from the end of the top, and into the edgegrain of the end boards, basically extending the tenon? How do you account for wood movement? The same was you do with the pins, by elongating the holes in the end board?
You could use dowels but I wouldn't recommend it...Again, this is another "modern" solution to the table for the most part unless those dowels are many and at least 1" in diameter...which is an example of a rather "chunky" Harvest table I saw once...Not terribly well designed and/or built. It was interesting and old though (circa 1640's) and had lots of "gnarly" character...

This is not an overtly complicated issue...

When a wide Bread Board is desired (which is often the case for the more folk style and traditional version...even common in some areas and forms of the table) the BB needs (I would say must!!!) be jointed in the fully traditional form...

That means it...CAN NOT...just have a tongue (aka short tenon) running the length of it stuck into a groove...Again, this seems to be a common "modern" way folks think of building these tables...

1. Actually BB are not only tongued (or splined) traditionally in the better designed and build version of these table forms...they are fully tenoned as well in a myriad of modalities with either contiguous tenon (aka part of the orgin stock material) or "toggle tenoned" (aka "free tenon.)

This tenon runs at least 2/3 the depth of the BB itself is in width and the tenon is usually at least as wide as it is deep...So, for example, if the BB is 12" wide the tenon will run 8" deep and be 8" wide.

2. The rule of thirds is not being followed (this is a rule of "thumb"...and not set is stone...) as a guide for sizing your joinery... Thus, if your orgin stock is 1.5" thick...We should start by thinking of the tongue being 1/2" thick at least. I would suggest, in your application it go with the 3/4 thick tenon/tongue and the shoulders left at 3/8"....or...1/2" tongue and 3/4 toggle (aka free) tenon of hardwood.

Here are some other post, if you haven't read them already? that you might find of value:

Bread Board Questions

Breadboard Ends Help

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post #16 of 27 Old 08-05-2019, 10:54 AM
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Dylan,


Part of the issue is the wood and part is the design.


The Wood> When doing an type of joinery with a soft wood, you have to be VERY careful with test fitting. As you've discovered, a mallet can get you in trouble real quick.



The Design> You've also discovered the issues with very wide bb's. What you've pictured won't work. It would have to be supported along its length to within a few inches of the edge in order to avoid a failure. (Think about Uncle Buck over for Thanksgiving leaning on the edge of the table.......)


A good rule of thumb is the tongue 1/3 the width of the bb. In your case that's a 4" deep mortise - pretty deep!


You also cannot simply pin a bb. Typically a bb is draw bore pinned. The center is fixed and the other pin holes are elongated laterally to allow the table top to move.



Also, and exposed tongue is not as appealing as a hidden one.


Sum it all up here are my suggestions:


1. Narrow the BB down to 8" max.
2. Size mortise to 1/3 the width of the BB.

3. Be extremely careful when fitting the joint (I think you already know this).
4. Draw bore pin as described.
5. Just worth mentioning: BB's should never be glued.
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post #17 of 27 Old 08-05-2019, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
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...........You also cannot simply pin a bb. Typically a bb is draw bore pinned. ...........
5. Just worth mentioning: BB's should never be glued.
Question.................I have made only few BB tables. I never pinned using the draw bore method. My question is : If yu draw bore you will be putting a large mount of pressure on that joint. Would that negate the use of elongated holes if the joint is "fixed" from the drawing of the piece?

Thanks in advance
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post #18 of 27 Old 08-05-2019, 02:32 PM
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A solid "whack" with a mallet?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylan JC Buffum View Post
Another test piece split with a solid whack...



This one has a 1.25” x 3/8” tenon, and the board is 6” wide.
What am I not getting about this?
Your test method is extreme and would not be a normal everyday occurence. Any forces applied to the very end of the bread board would normally be gradually applied, not a dynamic blow.

I would do more testing. I would use the 1/3 rule for depth of tenon and mortise, about 3" in the case would be max. More than that will be difficult to create either power or hand tools.

So, you have long grain from the top planks as the tenons and long grain from the mortises at right angles. They are only pinned together with dowels, either blind up from the bottom of through the entire top thickness. What will happen, as you found out, is that the mortises will split out at the end of the tenons. As a different test method, I would add bar bell weights, or sand bags to the end of the BB, keeping track of the amounts, until failure. The tenon plank need to be secure to a stout bench top with clamps so it can't move.

You may be surprised how much weight it will hold ... I donno? As the table width increases having more than one test plank as the tenons, the BB end will obviously be able to support more weight.
See my previous post above for an analysis of the forces so you understand whats happening.

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
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post #19 of 27 Old 08-05-2019, 07:28 PM
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Longer, individual tenons:
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post #20 of 27 Old 08-05-2019, 07:40 PM
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Yes, of course ^

Making the tenons, no sweat! Chopping the mortises, plenty of sweat!
There will those who say, Yeah, but it can be done in a few hours, maybe less. Ok, that maybe true, but I'm looking for a faster, easier way as always. I'm seeing a breadboard made from several pieces glued together forming the mortises. I haven't seen one or tried one made that way but I'm way better at gluing pieces together than chopping mortises that deep.



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The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)

Last edited by woodnthings; 08-05-2019 at 08:14 PM.
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