Best way to cut this joint? - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
 
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post #1 of 11 Old 08-30-2015, 11:04 PM Thread Starter
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Best way to cut this joint?

Not sure of this is the right place or not, but I'm trying to work out the best way to cut this joint using hand tools. Its for joining a side table leg to a the table top -so fairly low demand. I plan to glue the inserted bits and the faces in contact between the two sockets. Does this joint have a name?

I'm new at this so the photo is my first attempt at a wood joint, so it's pretty rough. I used chisels and hand drills, but with no specific plan or technique, I figure there must be an efficient and clean way to make this cut, but don't know what I should search for for video advice.

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post #2 of 11 Old 08-31-2015, 12:46 AM
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Depends on the tools you have. For the square stretcher/leg a dado or tablesaw would make the center cut. Or if you only have hand tools a hand saw to cut the two outside lines and then the saw to cut multiple cuts to the depth, then break out the pcs and clean up with a chisel.

For the double slot in the board a drill to cut out the majority and then clean up the corners with a chisel or jigsaw.

If you have a square hole mortise chisel you could use that.

Measure Twice Cut Once -- It's a lot easier to cut more off then it is to cut MORON.
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post #3 of 11 Old 08-31-2015, 07:15 AM
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The joint would be a double mortise and tenon. Personally I don't think it's a good joint for that application. The wood needs to expand and contract and having two tenons on it would restrict some of that movement especially if there is a rail between the legs. Also the tenons wouldn't be long enough to give it as much strength as you would need. Anyway to answer your question the joint could be done with a hand saw and chisels. If you had a back saw and a coping saw it would be easier to make the tenons.
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post #4 of 11 Old 08-31-2015, 07:36 AM
where's my table saw?
 
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I'm with Steve

It doesn't show from the top, so why make a "designers" joint that's hidden?
You can have as much strength by using just a single tenon and mortise.
If you did want it to show then use a wedged tenon and sand it all flush.
Whichever method you use, orient the grain in the legs to be parallel to the grain on the top to avoid expansion issues.

There is no easy way to make a square cornered mortise other than using sharp chisels and a series of drilled holes OR a router with a template OR by routing just up to a line freehand. Of course a hollow chisel mortiser would work, but are not part of the average home shop's tool repertoire.

Forstner bits will give a clean bottom hole and come in many size, then chisel out the waste in the corners.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=19&v=WmhqpZR8n2w

As far as tenons, I like to use my bandsaw and the fence with a stop. I just make a practice piece and set the fence away from the blade and flip the piece over to get it equal on both faces.


The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)

Last edited by woodnthings; 08-31-2015 at 07:43 AM.
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post #5 of 11 Old 08-31-2015, 02:37 PM
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Actually he has twice the surface area to glue with that style joint than he would have with a single tenon, so it should be a stronger joint.

Wise men speak because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something -Plato

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post #6 of 11 Old 08-31-2015, 03:52 PM
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M and T into the bottom of the top...

There are several ways to make this joint:

The first (A) is a tenon without a shoulder. The tenon would just bottom out into the mortise for it's depth.
Lots of area for strength and glue. The shoulder usually conceals the joint/gaps, but is not needed under a tabletop. Any glue surface would be end grain to face grain on the shoulder, and maybe would add some strength, but I wouldn't count on it.

The second (B) is the proposal by the OP. It's more work, looks cool until you assemble it. It may have more strength in one direction against racking ...I donno?

Third is (C) which is the traditional shouldered tenon into a mortise. Again may have some added strength, who knows?
My apologies for the rotated sketch. I tried to fix it....
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The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)

Last edited by Steve Neul; 08-31-2015 at 04:01 PM.
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post #7 of 11 Old 08-31-2015, 06:44 PM
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If style B has the mortices cut parallel to the grain it will be the strongest joint, four surfaces with face grain to face grain, if they are cut across the grain it will be a weak joint, four surfaces with end to face grain. Both A and C will basically have two strong joints, and two weaker joints. This is discounting any value in the shoulder joints where there is also a greater area in B.

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post #8 of 11 Old 09-04-2015, 01:37 AM
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Useless joint and design. The only glue holding power will be on the cheeks of the stub tenons, if you can clamp them and they fit, the rest is end grain. The table top will move across the grain breaking the cheek glue line, if you were lucky enough to get a decent bond. One push and the table will collapse, sorry to say. If successful, any warping in the top will lift a leg. I'd go back to the drawing table on this one.
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post #9 of 11 Old 09-10-2015, 04:49 PM Thread Starter
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Thank you all for the input. I'm going for an apron-less table, which is why I wanted the tenons to be spaced apart - so there would be as much of a lever between them as possible as they have to cantilever from the table base to resist racking.

I don't know why but it didn't occur to me to use a saw to cut out most of the piece between the tenons, so I originally did that by chisel. I deepened it a small amount with a saw and it was much easier to remove the waste.

With the mortises I guess it's just a lot of work to cut them out without power tools, and I can't justify the expense of a routing plane for this project - maybe for the next one. On the upside - I have a small right-angled woodcarving tool I can use for the corners.

As for the strength, I cut each leg about 3" longer than needed so I'd have a few attempts on each, and the mortises were cut into a scrap piece - so I decided to load test it. The test was pretty harsh IMO - the joint is my first attempt and didn't fit as snug as I'd like and I only gave the glue 18 hours even though the bottle recommends 24. The tenons are about 11/16" long and I have space to cut them deeper, so for the actual table I'll make them closer to 7/8".



In total the leg carried 45 pounds (didn't get the photo for that one so the pic below only has 40 pounds) and failed when I took the load up to 50#, slowly pulling out over the course of about 5 seconds once it started moving.

Given this is for a small side table and not a dining table that might be abused more I reckon the strength should be OK.
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post #10 of 11 Old 09-10-2015, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woodnthings View Post
There are several ways to make this joint:

The first (A) is a tenon without a shoulder. The tenon would just bottom out into the mortise for it's depth.
Lots of area for strength and glue. The shoulder usually conceals the joint/gaps, but is not needed under a tabletop. Any glue surface would be end grain to face grain on the shoulder, and maybe would add some strength, but I wouldn't count on it.

The second (B) is the proposal by the OP. It's more work, looks cool until you assemble it. It may have more strength in one direction against racking ...I donno?

Third is (C) which is the traditional shouldered tenon into a mortise. Again may have some added strength, who knows?
My apologies for the rotated sketch. I tried to fix it....
Woodnthings did a great job explaining variations of this joint. I agree with other post that the joint you pictured is not too common.
I like #3 of the joints Woodnthings pictured best.
To make any of these joints with hand tools' you need sharp chisels, a combination square, a backsaw, pencil and drill. That's all you need, with a good eye and patience.
Good luck yo you.
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post #11 of 11 Old 09-10-2015, 05:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woodnthings View Post
There are several ways to make this joint:

The first (A) is a tenon without a shoulder. The tenon would just bottom out into the mortise for it's depth.
Lots of area for strength and glue. The shoulder usually conceals the joint/gaps, but is not needed under a tabletop. Any glue surface would be end grain to face grain on the shoulder, and maybe would add some strength, but I wouldn't count on it.

The second (B) is the proposal by the OP. It's more work, looks cool until you assemble it. It may have more strength in one direction against racking ...I donno?

Third is (C) which is the traditional shouldered tenon into a mortise. Again may have some added strength, who knows?
My apologies for the rotated sketch. I tried to fix it....
Woodnthings did a great job explaining variations of this joint. I agree with other post that the joint you pictured is not too common.
I like #3 of the joints Woodnthings pictured best.
To make any of these joints with hand tools' you need sharp chisels, a combination square, a backsaw, pencil and drill. That's all you need, with a good eye and patience.
Good luck you.
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