Advce on M+T - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 21 Old 03-06-2014, 01:32 PM Thread Starter
The Old Fisherman
 
w1pers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Colorado
Posts: 305
View w1pers's Photo Album My Photos
Advce on M+T

Getting ready to try my first official furniture build. I am just going to do a basic end table build and have a couple of ideas on design which includes doing Mortise +Tenon on the main supports and cross beams(?). I plan on checking out a couple of youtube videos (thank God for the internet) as well. I will use my TS and Forstner bits. I don't have any jigs but I think I could probably free hand if I am careful. Without using too many technical terms (I don't want to spend half my time looking up terms) I am looking for suggestions etc. on the correct procedures, positioning, measuring... Well you get the idea. If anyone has a good youtube video to share that will help I would love to hear it.

Rob
w1pers is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 21 Old 03-06-2014, 03:03 PM
Member
 
Native NYer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Gilbert, Az
Posts: 60
View Native NYer's Photo Album My Photos
Native NYer is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Native NYer For This Useful Post:
w1pers (03-06-2014)
post #3 of 21 Old 03-06-2014, 03:50 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 479
View Billy De's Photo Album My Photos
Rob, notice how the guy in the second you tube marks the mortice and tenon from one side of the stock this is called, face side and face edge.

If I was to give any one doing any joinery for the first time any advise it would be to understand face side and face edge and the effects these two sides will have on any joinery work you wish to carry out.

Here is a link to a thread showing how I was originally taught how to hand cut mortice and tenons if you can use any part of it you are more than welcome.

http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f5/mo...non-how-52790/
Billy De is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Billy De For This Useful Post:
w1pers (03-06-2014)
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 21 Old 03-06-2014, 07:40 PM
crosseyed & dyslexic
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 589
View Crusader's Photo Album My Photos
All kinds of ways to accomplish a M&T but here's what I do. I always make my mortises first then my tenons. I found by doing this I can sneak up on my tenon fit. I use a mortising machine so mine come out consistent in width. Spend a fair amount of time getting your ts
set up correctly so your shoulders come out equal.
Good luck!
Crusader is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Crusader For This Useful Post:
w1pers (03-06-2014)
post #5 of 21 Old 03-07-2014, 12:08 AM
Senior Member
 
JMartel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 618
View JMartel's Photo Album My Photos
I think it's worth looking into making a few jigs. I just recently built these for doing M&T joints. Mine are more complicated than most, but there are definitely simpler ones out there. Tenon jig from woodgears.ca plans: You set stops up and just move the lever and the entire upper carriage moves. You only use 1 reference face, and there's a dial indicator so you can tell exactly how large your tenon will be. ] And a mortise jig from wood smith. Set the stop blocks in all 4 directions and you can rout out a mortise of any size.

Last edited by JMartel; 03-10-2014 at 02:45 PM.
JMartel is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to JMartel For This Useful Post:
w1pers (03-09-2014)
post #6 of 21 Old 03-07-2014, 08:11 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Near Boston, Massachusetts
Posts: 1,530
View amckenzie4's Photo Album My Photos
I'll be honest with you: at this point I'm still very much a beginner with hand tools, and I can't imagine cutting tenons with a power tool again unless I had a huge run of them to do. Half a dozen chairs, say. With a good backsaw and a wide bench chisel they're really pretty easy to cut. I'm building a lid for a tool chest that uses bridle joints at the corners, and cutting the tenons has been pretty easy, although my accuracy leaves something to be desired. I think about the jigs and time required to make them, and the space required to store them, and I just cringe. I don't have a big enough shop for that, and I'd rather be working on building skills than jigs.

Mortises, now... I would absolutely love to have a mortising machine. In the meantime, I'll cut most of my mortises (in the summer, when I can use the big shop) with a drill press and clean them out with a chisel.

Now... all of that said, please don't take this to mean I think YOU should never use a power tool. If that's what you're in to, or if you're expecting to do large runs, go for it! But I do think it might be worth your time to buy a decent handsaw and give that a try. You might find it a lot easier than you expect.
amckenzie4 is offline  
post #7 of 21 Old 03-07-2014, 08:48 AM
Sawdust Creator
 
ryan50hrl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 8,047
View ryan50hrl's Photo Album My Photos
Lol....I can't ever imagine cutting a tennon by hand again....I guess it's all relative....

The tools don't make the craftsman....
ryan50hrl is offline  
post #8 of 21 Old 03-07-2014, 09:29 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Near Boston, Massachusetts
Posts: 1,530
View amckenzie4's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryan50hrl View Post
Lol....I can't ever imagine cutting a tennon by hand again....I guess it's all relative....
Yep! Like I said, I just think it's worth a shot. If you're only doing a single nightstand, and you don't already have the jigs, it might be faster to do them by hand.

On the other hand, for a lot of people it will be a lot faster by machine... It'll vary a lot person to person.
amckenzie4 is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to amckenzie4 For This Useful Post:
w1pers (03-07-2014)
post #9 of 21 Old 03-07-2014, 11:12 PM Thread Starter
The Old Fisherman
 
w1pers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Colorado
Posts: 305
View w1pers's Photo Album My Photos
Thanks guys. I appreciate the good advice. I think I am going to try it first with my TS and drill press. I have a couple of hand saws I think I could use if I decided to try that direction. I may eventually make a jig but I am going to try it the way the guy in the 1st video did it. I am certainly going to try a few practice M+T before I try on the end tables but I feel confident that I can figure it out. I am excited to get started. And yes, I will post pics on the build.

Rob
w1pers is offline  
post #10 of 21 Old 03-10-2014, 12:01 AM Thread Starter
The Old Fisherman
 
w1pers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Colorado
Posts: 305
View w1pers's Photo Album My Photos
Worked on my M+T joints yesterday. The Tenon was fairly straight forward. Definitely see the need for a jig. I will be looking into building one soon. A little spooky holding that wood against the fence over the blade. The mortise was another matter. I think part of the trouble I had is leveling the drill press correctly, before using the Forstner bits and then the wood chisels. I was also using some scrap pine and redwood I had around which I suspect caused some trouble, because of how soft it is. I don't quite get the concept for the face side and the face edge. I will have to see if I can find another explanation. Its always a conceptual thing with me. Until I can really understand the relationship and picture it in my head it kind of just bounces around. I suspect that also may be part of the problem. They didn't turn out terrible, just not as good as I wanted. Part of the learning curve I know but a little frustrating. I hate to practice with any of the wood I may want to use for the build (Did I mention I will be trying to use primarily reclaimed pallet wood) but I may have too since some of it is hard wood and may change the dynamics of the M+T.

Rob
w1pers is offline  
post #11 of 21 Old 03-10-2014, 02:01 AM
Senior Member
 
JMartel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 618
View JMartel's Photo Album My Photos
Wait. You held the board upright and ran it over the blade riding the small fence?

Don't ever do that. That is extremely unsafe and asking for a kickback in your face. If you don't have a tenon jig, you are supposed to set the fence to where it will cut the shoulder, and then just take nibbling passes slowly moving the stock away from the fence each time so it removes the whole area. Much slower and won't leave a clean face on the tenon, unless you use a flat bottom dado blade.
JMartel is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to JMartel For This Useful Post:
w1pers (03-10-2014)
post #12 of 21 Old 03-10-2014, 04:35 AM
where's my table saw?
 
woodnthings's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: SE, Michigan
Posts: 27,110
View woodnthings's Photo Album My Photos
agreed!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMartel View Post
Wait. You held the board upright and ran it over the blade riding the small fence?

Don't ever do that. That is extremely unsafe and asking for a kickback in your face. If you don't have a tenon jig, you are supposed to set the fence to where it will cut the shoulder, and then just take nibbling passes slowly moving the stock away from the fence each time so it removes the whole area. Much slower and won't leave a clean face on the tenon, unless you use a flat bottom dado blade.

Please resize your photos in this post so we don't have to scroll 3 times to read each comment...PITA


Now as to the safety aspect. There are 2 basic ways to make a tenon on the table saw... vertically and horizontally. A tenon jig as you have shown is the best and safest way to make them vertically. And the "nibbling" method with a blade or dado is the only way possible to make them horizontally.

Do not hand hold a piece vertically with the end on the table and face against the fence, you are asking for trouble in the form of a kickback OR a sloppy and inaccurate cut.

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
woodnthings is offline  
post #13 of 21 Old 03-10-2014, 08:29 AM
Senior Member
 
BZawat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Wilkes-Barre, PA
Posts: 1,455
View BZawat's Photo Album My Photos
Really simple way to cut tenons with a table saw is with a dado stack & miter gauge. I'd skip all the complicated jigs; just looking at all that stuff makes my head hurt. JMO. I find that simpler is always better, more control over your finished product. And you'll develop some useful skills along the way.
And like Andy said, they're not that hard to cut by hand if you choose that route. I cut mortises with a Forstner bit & chisels fairly quickly, not a huge deal. All it takes is some experimentation.
BZawat is offline  
post #14 of 21 Old 03-10-2014, 09:55 AM
Old School
 
cabinetman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: So. Florida
Posts: 24,027
View cabinetman's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by BZawat View Post
Really simple way to cut tenons with a table saw is with a dado stack & miter gauge. I'd skip all the complicated jigs; just looking at all that stuff makes my head hurt. JMO. I find that simpler is always better, more control over your finished product. And you'll develop some useful skills along the way.
And like Andy said, they're not that hard to cut by hand if you choose that route. I cut mortises with a Forstner bit & chisels fairly quickly, not a huge deal. All it takes is some experimentation.
+1. If you have a RAS, you could do the tenons. Using chisels for the mortises, will do tearing and crushing unless they are very sharp.





.
cabinetman is offline  
post #15 of 21 Old 03-10-2014, 11:11 AM
Senior Member
 
Gilgaron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 911
View Gilgaron's Photo Album My Photos
I'll probably try cutting them by hand next time, but to add one more method to the mix: you can cut the shoulders on the table saw and them cut the cheeks off on the bandsaw with one fence setting on each and proceed very quickly with no jigs and with only four passes on each machine rather than nibble cuts.
Gilgaron is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Gilgaron For This Useful Post:
w1pers (03-10-2014)
post #16 of 21 Old 03-10-2014, 02:42 PM
Senior Member
 
JMartel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 618
View JMartel's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by woodnthings
Please resize your photos in this post so we don't have to scroll 3 times to read each comment...PITA

:
Me? The photos are a standard 1024px on the long side. You shouldn't need to scroll unless you have a very low screen resolution.
JMartel is offline  
post #17 of 21 Old 03-10-2014, 04:48 PM
where's my table saw?
 
woodnthings's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: SE, Michigan
Posts: 27,110
View woodnthings's Photo Album My Photos
heck, I donno?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMartel View Post
Me? The photos are a standard 1024px on the long side. You shouldn't need to scroll unless you have a very low screen resolution.

Those are great photos!
But, there is no scrolling needed now...
No need to scroll on other threads ....

JPG size is 620 X 480 in "Manage Attachments" window....

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)

Last edited by woodnthings; 03-10-2014 at 04:54 PM.
woodnthings is offline  
post #18 of 21 Old 03-10-2014, 11:52 PM Thread Starter
The Old Fisherman
 
w1pers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Colorado
Posts: 305
View w1pers's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by JMartel View Post
Wait. You held the board upright and ran it over the blade riding the small fence?

Don't ever do that. That is extremely unsafe and asking for a kickback in your face. If you don't have a tenon jig, you are supposed to set the fence to where it will cut the shoulder, and then just take nibbling passes slowly moving the stock away from the fence each time so it removes the whole area. Much slower and won't leave a clean face on the tenon, unless you use a flat bottom dado blade.
If you watch the 1st video posted earlier in the thread, that is exactly what he does. Not saying you are not right cause I can certainly understand the danger and I didn't particularly like doing it that way. I had thought to make several passes over the blade (the nibbling technique) but figured if that was the way he was showing it in the video...must be ok. I will certainly change my method from now on. As I said...just learning. Counting on you guys to give me the correct methods.

Rob
w1pers is offline  
post #19 of 21 Old 03-11-2014, 12:45 AM
Senior Member
 
JMartel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 618
View JMartel's Photo Album My Photos
That video is a pretty poor example. Lots of unsafe techniques there.

Next time, I would highly suggest either picking up a Dado stack and using that to cut your tenons, or making at least a simple jig that rides the fence.



That one is very simple to make, and is much safer to use. Clamp your stock to it and push it along your tablesaw fence. Readjust the fence for each side of the tenon.
JMartel is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to JMartel For This Useful Post:
w1pers (03-11-2014)
post #20 of 21 Old 03-12-2014, 11:45 AM Thread Starter
The Old Fisherman
 
w1pers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Colorado
Posts: 305
View w1pers's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by JMartel View Post
That video is a pretty poor example. Lots of unsafe techniques there.

Next time, I would highly suggest either picking up a Dado stack and using that to cut your tenons, or making at least a simple jig that rides the fence.



That one is very simple to make, and is much safer to use. Clamp your stock to it and push it along your tablesaw fence. Readjust the fence for each side of the tenon.
Any particular recommendation on type of wood to use for this jig?

Rob
w1pers is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome