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post #41 of 62 Old 03-08-2019, 11:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian T View Post
...None of you ever mention the TomZ, a motorized sharpener for wood carving edges. Designed by a carver...
I'm not certain they are made anymore...or...are a "one off" custom build? Some folks have made their own versions of the same devise as Tom did (does?)...

The Spokane Carvers Blog is the only place I know to get them...???...do you know another?

Are they still actually made?

Do you like the one you use?

TomZ Knife Massager

At $200...I chose (after using one of TomZ's machines) to go with the system I recommend earlier...

I have considered adding a Burke Sharpening System which is still made and/or building one. It is a more diversified system and does an excellent job fast!!! It's diversity is more fitting to the various knives, chisels (straight and gouge...incannal and outcannel) than that of the "Knife Massager." However, many do seem like both the Burke and TomZ's systems...

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...Flat stones and mandrels are cheap. No need for wooden profiles, etc. Even tennis balls don't cost much...
???...I can respect the opinion of liking flat stones or "tennis balls" (a mandrel is a shaft or spindle on a drill, lathe for turning...or cylindrical rod around which metal or other material is forged or shaped...not a "tennisball?") ...but as to "no need for wood profiles" that is pushing your opinion up a steep hill...

I know more carvers (me included) that like making there custom profiles for sharpening out of wood as these are dedicated to the specific tool...and...these are much less expensive than flat stones...fact...not opinion... on that one...

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...If I was not satisfied with both the quality and the speed of my freehand sharpening, I would be looking still...
I can respect that...for sure...

Nevertheless, I think that can be said for any of us that have extensive experience sharpening about the systems we have experience with.

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post #42 of 62 Old 03-09-2019, 04:14 AM
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I've not needed to search for some form of mechanized sharpening.

Given the geometry of the TomZ, I would not consider it for wood working edges.
I don't need to buy one to draw that conclusion.



I know what mandrels are as supports for abrasives. I have to use quite a variety, including tennis balls.
I have been able to cut the time in half, sort of, for my freehand maintenance of all the edges that I use.
The select abrasives have predictable action.



I'm still looking and hoping to find suitable hard river stones (no shortage here to pick from)
to test their value as abrasive for the progressive sweeps of the crooked knives.



I think the key step is to evaluate the condition of the worn edge. Frequent inspection might shorten each stage.
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post #43 of 62 Old 03-09-2019, 09:52 PM
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Quote:
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...I've not needed to search for some form of mechanized sharpening...Given the geometry of the TomZ, I would not consider it for wood working edges...I don't need to buy one to draw that conclusion.
My error...???

I just thought because your recommended TomZ's tool you had experience using it...

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...I know what mandrels are as supports for abrasives. I have to use quite a variety, including tennis balls...I have been able to cut the time in half, sort of, for my freehand maintenance of all the edges that I use...The select abrasives have predictable action.
I understand better now your meaning of "mandrel." You are using it outside the context of its normal meaning and applying your own understanding of the word.

I take it now to not being an actual mechanized "spinning mandrel" like we find with carving bits and sanding cap mandrel but your own hand holding a tennis ball covered in abrasive materials...Sounds interesting?

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...I'm still looking and hoping to find suitable hard river stones (no shortage here to pick from) to test their value as abrasive for the progressive sweeps of the crooked knives...
Now that deserves its own "post thread" on the topic of sharpening. I know a colleague in Japan and one in Arkansas that have there own special Brook that has the stream of water cutting through a vein of stone stratum of several high quality stones. If you have such there you are bound to find some interesting samples!

I know my best Japanese water stones are "natural-man made" which reads like a paradox, but really isn't...LOL...

The use only the best "natural stone" and then grind these to sift and remove all "clinkers" from the medium. Then the process with a porcelain grade kaolin clay to traditionally fire a stone that is both pure in various grain size but also very fast cutting...

It would be cool if to try a "home version" of this to make my own stones, which is on my "bucket list" of things to do once I have my ceramics stuff all set up again...

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...I think the key step is to evaluate the condition of the worn edge. Frequent inspection might shorten each stage...
I agree fully...

I think folks wait to long between inspection and honing and have then spend more time sharpening rather than proper edge maintenance that is less aggressive in nature...
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post #44 of 62 Old 03-09-2019, 11:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian T View Post
I've not needed to search for some form of mechanized sharpening.

Given the geometry of the TomZ, I would not consider it for wood working edges.
I don't need to buy one to draw that conclusion.
I spoke with Tom on the WCI that you and I are a member of. Tom told me all I needed to know to make my own massage machine hone. I really do like it, it is slow enough that it will never over heat an edge. I have the hard felt wheel for polishing also, it is much faster so I usually will place my finger right at the edge I am polishing so I won't over heat it.

There are so many different ways to sharpen and polish edges it is confusing to a person just starting off. I know I went through a lot of trial and error sharpening and trying different ways. I still use different methods at times, just depends on what mood I am in. lol I usually will just hone my edges as I need to, unless I chip one, then it back to sharpening.

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post #45 of 62 Old 03-10-2019, 03:05 PM
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The OP wanted something quick. A fast way to maintain edges. Whatever the technique is.


I'll suggest that inspection of any edge in a bright light is enough to judge what to do.
I have to use a 10X magnifier for my old eyes. Keep looking to see what's happening.

I will not begin at 400 if I decided that a few licks begining with 1,000 will do the job, skipping 600 and 800.
That's about 1/2 my process time, right there.
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post #46 of 62 Old 03-10-2019, 06:15 PM
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PLEASE REMOVE THE COPY OF..."The Perfect Edge by Ron Hock"

ATTENTION READERS:

This linked copy that I provided from my book marked links was not a sanctioned PDF. Please destroy, erase and/or remove all copies made. Please remove any links to the online PDF you may have bookmarked also.

As a public service announcement, I have addressed this with Ron directly, and with a Senior Moderator here on the forum also.

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post #47 of 62 Old 03-10-2019, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay C. White Cloud View Post
ATTENTION READERS:

This linked copy that I provided from my book marked links was not a sanctioned PDF. Please destroy, erase and/or remove all copies made. Please remove any links to the online PDF you may have bookmarked also.

As a public service announcement, I have addressed this with Ron directly, and with a Senior Moderator here on the forum also.
I deleted post 18 with the link.
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post #48 of 62 Old 03-10-2019, 08:14 PM
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Please restore the record and properly repair the posts...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
I deleted post 18 with the link.
Steve,

I was taking care of this with another Senior Moderator...

In your rush to get involved you have taken corrective action that is not appropriate to the public record!!!

I made a clear mistake with my actions. The record of those actions...NEED TO...stay intact for the contextual record of this forum conversation.

ONLY...the links to the PDF source needs to be REMOVED...Please put place post 18 back within this record without the link so the context of this conversation stays intake and does not look like a surreptitious "cover up" of...my error!!!

Also, in your haste to take action already being addressed by me, you neglected to remove the other remaining "copied" links within this conversation.

If you wish to be helpful, please remove those links and replace post 18 as well...without the links! I made an error...I own my mistakes...I do not shy from them or try to neglect when I have made one by erasing there existence...

Tosa Tomo Designs
Confucius (551 BCE): "I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand..." "...Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance..." Socrates:的 cannot teach anybody anything. I can only help them think..."
Stephen Covey:"Seek to understand, before seeking to be understood..."

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post #49 of 62 Old 03-10-2019, 09:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay C. White Cloud View Post
Steve,

I was taking care of this with another Senior Moderator...

In your rush to get involved you have taken corrective action that is not appropriate to the public record!!!

I made a clear mistake with my actions. The record of those actions...NEED TO...stay intact for the contextual record of this forum conversation.

ONLY...the links to the PDF source needs to be REMOVED...Please put place post 18 back within this record without the link so the context of this conversation stays intake and does not look like a surreptitious "cover up" of...my error!!!

Also, in your haste to take action already being addressed by me, you neglected to remove the other remaining "copied" links within this conversation.

If you wish to be helpful, please remove those links and replace post 18 as well...without the links! I made an error...I own my mistakes...I do not shy from them or try to neglect when I have made one by erasing there existence...
Jay, I have reversed the deleted post #18 and removed the link with a note. If you will point me to other links that need to be removed I will remove them as well.

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post #50 of 62 Old 03-10-2019, 09:46 PM
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Quote:
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Jay, I have reversed the deleted post #18 and removed the link with a note. If you will point me to other links that need to be removed I will remove them as well.
My sincere thanks Jim for repairing the record within this conversation. All links appear removed. Ron will, of course check, but at this time is please and satisfied with the outcome.

If any readers do enjoy his book, I would encourage them to get a copy of it. It is an excellent one, and I have already apologized to Ron for my error in assuming the PDF was of the public record, and not the "boot leg," copy it turned out to be...
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post #51 of 62 Old 03-11-2019, 03:49 PM
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If you really need fine wet&dry sandpapers with measured grit particle sizes,
Lee Valley stocks 3M paper to 2,500 grit, including 1,500.
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post #52 of 62 Old 03-11-2019, 08:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay C. White Cloud View Post
Steve,

I was taking care of this with another Senior Moderator...

In your rush to get involved you have taken corrective action that is not appropriate to the public record!!!

I made a clear mistake with my actions. The record of those actions...NEED TO...stay intact for the contextual record of this forum conversation.

ONLY...the links to the PDF source needs to be REMOVED...Please put place post 18 back within this record without the link so the context of this conversation stays intake and does not look like a surreptitious "cover up" of...my error!!!

Also, in your haste to take action already being addressed by me, you neglected to remove the other remaining "copied" links within this conversation.

If you wish to be helpful, please remove those links and replace post 18 as well...without the links! I made an error...I own my mistakes...I do not shy from them or try to neglect when I have made one by erasing there existence...
Sorry, I searched for the link only and when I found it the only text in the post was about the link so I deleted the post. Without the link I couldn't see how the text would add to the conversation.
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post #53 of 62 Old 03-14-2019, 07:41 AM
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Back on topic:

How do people with mechanized sharpeners flatten the backs of their chisels and plane blades?

I have a Grizzly wet sharpener with Tormek jigs. I just started using a Robert Sorby ProEdge sharpener, which uses dry sanding belts with precise guides to align the tool to be sharpened. Neither the Grizzly nor the Sorby ProEdge instructions mention anything about flattening the backs of flat-edged tools. Grizzly especially warns against using the side of the grinding stone.

The experts who design, build, and use these sharpeners must know about the importance of flattening the backs of flat tools. To me, the lack of guidance for flattening the backs feels like the "elephant in the room." It is annoying that they don't mention it. I understand that once your blade is flat, it should stay that way for a long time, needing only the barest of touch-ups from time to time. Flattening the backs of blades is an essential part of the sharpening process. It is an inconvenient truth that their designs do not seem to address it. In my opinion, they owed us the courtesy of instructing us how they expected us to flatten the backs of hand tool blades with their sharpening systems. In my opinion, the least they could have done is include text in the instructions, something like, "This tool will sharpen and hone perfect bevels, but first you should flatten the backs of your flat hand tool blades using an external system (not included), such as sandpaper on a flat surface, or diamond sharpening stones."

I tried flattening the backs of two new chisels on the Sorby ProEdge by pressing them sideways, flat against the moving belt with its backing plate. It was an awful experience, and I could feel that it was not going to turn out well. It left lots of bevels and reflective angles. I just spent two full hours on the extra extra course stone, trying to flatten the backs of those two chisels. I am an hour or two away from finishing that job, which is what prompted this post.

I have not tried flattening them on the side of the Grizzly grinding wheel. Grizzly specifically warns against it. Even if it were allowed, I wonder whether the results would be similar to what happened with the Sorby ProEdge, considering that there is no "jig" to hold the chisel flat against the Grizzly wheel.

I have two questions:

* How do people with wet grinders and sanding belt sharpeners flatten the backs of their chisels and plane blades? Am I missing something obvious?

* How much time should it take to flatten the back of a typical 3/4 inch chisel with the damage I described, on an extra extra course stone? Does 2-3 hours of near-constant back-and-forth sharpening sound reasonable? Could my extra extra course diamond stone be too worn to take the metal off fast enough?

Last edited by Tool Agnostic; 03-14-2019 at 07:43 AM.
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post #54 of 62 Old 03-14-2019, 09:14 AM
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Tormek suggests using the side of the stone so that is a Grizzly thing.


In woodworking there is always more then one way to accomplish something.
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post #55 of 62 Old 03-14-2019, 09:47 AM
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Tool Agnostic, I think when you buy a new chisel, it comes about as flat as any mechanical machine can make it...give or take.
If you look at it under a microscope, there are scratch marks that make the flat side kind of corrugated. Those corrugations must be flattened further by hand on a flat surface using finer grits, because the corrugations will prevent the bevel from making a keen edge...where the two meet. Even though it takes what seem like forever to achieve that perfect/polished surface on the flat side, that is why it is so important. By flattening the flat side using your finest grit on a flat surface...and stroking the tool as close to 90 degrees to the surface...creates striations(scratch marks) that are less likely to spill over the edge, and will reduce the corrugations. I doubt that since a machine has moving parts, that it will be $$$/practical to ever achieve the flatness that can be achieved by flattening by hand.


I bought a 400x microscope that clips on my phone camera to better see what I have described, and from what I saw made me realize is that by going further and further finer and finer in grit will reduce the depth of the scratch marks, making it easier to achieve a keen edge when I switch to sharpening the bevel. This process also taught me to take a lot better care when handling my chisels afterwards.


The same theory's apply to plane irons, and when applied will cut curls when planning end grain.

I use an old speaker magnet to hold the chisel/plane iron for better control when using this method, and it eliminated the cramping in my hands.
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Last edited by gmercer_48083; 03-14-2019 at 09:55 AM.
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post #56 of 62 Old 03-14-2019, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tool Agnostic View Post
Back on topic:

How do people with mechanized sharpeners flatten the backs of their chisels and plane blades?

I have a Grizzly wet sharpener with Tormek jigs. I just started using a Robert Sorby ProEdge sharpener, which uses dry sanding belts with precise guides to align the tool to be sharpened. Neither the Grizzly nor the Sorby ProEdge instructions mention anything about flattening the backs of flat-edged tools. Grizzly especially warns against using the side of the grinding stone.

The experts who design, build, and use these sharpeners must know about the importance of flattening the backs of flat tools. To me, the lack of guidance for flattening the backs feels like the "elephant in the room." It is annoying that they don't mention it. I understand that once your blade is flat, it should stay that way for a long time, needing only the barest of touch-ups from time to time. Flattening the backs of blades is an essential part of the sharpening process. It is an inconvenient truth that their designs do not seem to address it. In my opinion, they owed us the courtesy of instructing us how they expected us to flatten the backs of hand tool blades with their sharpening systems. In my opinion, the least they could have done is include text in the instructions, something like, "This tool will sharpen and hone perfect bevels, but first you should flatten the backs of your flat hand tool blades using an external system (not included), such as sandpaper on a flat surface, or diamond sharpening stones."

I tried flattening the backs of two new chisels on the Sorby ProEdge by pressing them sideways, flat against the moving belt with its backing plate. It was an awful experience, and I could feel that it was not going to turn out well. It left lots of bevels and reflective angles. I just spent two full hours on the extra extra course stone, trying to flatten the backs of those two chisels. I am an hour or two away from finishing that job, which is what prompted this post.

I have not tried flattening them on the side of the Grizzly grinding wheel. Grizzly specifically warns against it. Even if it were allowed, I wonder whether the results would be similar to what happened with the Sorby ProEdge, considering that there is no "jig" to hold the chisel flat against the Grizzly wheel.

I have two questions:

* How do people with wet grinders and sanding belt sharpeners flatten the backs of their chisels and plane blades? Am I missing something obvious?

* How much time should it take to flatten the back of a typical 3/4 inch chisel with the damage I described, on an extra extra course stone? Does 2-3 hours of near-constant back-and-forth sharpening sound reasonable? Could my extra extra course diamond stone be too worn to take the metal off fast enough?
I use wet sandpaper on glass to flatten the back of my chisels.
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post #57 of 62 Old 03-14-2019, 09:37 PM Thread Starter
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Hi Tool, You don稚 mind if I use your first name do you? ; )
I don稚 have any input on flattening the back of chisels or plane blades. I understand the importance. I have only done this with sandpaper.
I would love to hear your views on the Sorby ProEdge Sharpener. It gets great reviews. My concerns are these:


1. 1. It is a belt sander. I do not like the way most belt sanders curve the bevel outward. Does this one do that? Opposed to a slight hollow grind that results from a wheel. It does seem to have a nice flat back to the area that would be used to sharpen. That might keep the bevel flat/straight.


2. 2. The belt comes from the top to the bottom, so the edge is pushing into the abrasion. This seems like it would not produce the best edge. No way to create a bead and then bend it off.



3. 3. First thought was that pushing a gouge into a belt was a very bad idea. Seems like a sharp tool would push through a sanding belt. What has been your experience? How do the belts last?


4. 4. I had a forth question, but have no idea what it was. It will probably come back.



Thanks!
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post #58 of 62 Old 05-21-2019, 04:47 AM
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I have one handheld electric sharpener. Its easy and quick. I have never use sharpener for wooden tools. I always use stones and sandpaper. Do you know any wooden tools sharpener?
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post #59 of 62 Old 05-21-2019, 07:18 AM
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There are many different machines to hone chisels. It could perhaps be a labor savings if a person had a lot of chisels to sharpen at once but if a person knew how to use natural stones could sharpen a chisel just as fast without it. Sharpening any tool is a matter of polishing an edge on the metal and requires stones of different textures from coarse to very fine and on a machine would be a lot of work changing those stones. Sharpening just a couple chisels it's easier to just pick up the stones as you need them. https://www.woodcraft.com/blog_entries/power-sharpeners
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post #60 of 62 Old 05-21-2019, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
There are many different machines to hone chisels. It could perhaps be a labor savings if a person had a lot of chisels to sharpen at once but if a person knew how to use natural stones could sharpen a chisel just as fast without it. Sharpening any tool is a matter of polishing an edge on the metal and requires stones of different textures from coarse to very fine and on a machine would be a lot of work changing those stones. Sharpening just a couple chisels it's easier to just pick up the stones as you need them. https://www.woodcraft.com/blog_entries/power-sharpeners
YES EXACTLY.

One of the key components behind this strategy is to never let your tool get real dull in the first place

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