System design... Time for a new DC if I want central collection? - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
 1Likes
  • 1 Post By DrRobert
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 11 Old 08-08-2020, 11:25 PM Thread Starter
Jack of too many trades..
 
RepairmanJack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 164
View RepairmanJack's Photo Album My Photos
System design... Time for a new DC if I want central collection?

I think my shop setup is too big for my 1hp delta dust collection (650 CFM or so). If I upgrade to a 2 hp HFT collector, can I expect better performance?

After investing in PVC pipe, Y-fittings and blast gates, I thought I had the dust collection covered, but after trying to add 2" hoses for my routers and tablesaw top collection, I realize that this isn't working very well.

Background/Situation
I had to take a few years off from woodworking after a move to a new home that lacked a safe and functional space to set up my shop. After extensive floor leveling and waterproofing, I was finally able to move all of my woodworking machines into a 13x25" portion of the basement. Because this is a basement shop, I wanted to be more proactive about dust collection than I was in my last shop.

Here's the details...
For the type of woodworking I do (historical restoration, windows, built-ins, plus occasional furniture and cabinets projects, I have seven major woodworking machines where I want to have effective and centralized dust collection, even though these machines are never used simultaneously. I also only work on weekends, and occasionally some evenings. This is not my day job, but it is something of a part-time job.

My major machines are:
- 12" compound miter saw (Dewalt)
- 10" Cabinet saw (Delta Unisaw) with a 50" "right" extension and "left" router wing (featuring a Porter Cable 892)
- 13" Planner (Dewalt)
- 6" Jointer (Enco)
- 14" Laguna Bandsaw
- Mortising machine (Rikon)
- Router table (also with a Porter cable 892)

The unisaw is central to the shop, and due to the size of its wings, it basically splits the space into a "north" and "south" half. I'd also like to have a dust "sweep" for each half. That's essentially 9 major hook-ups, plus the 2" router fence ports, upper port for my miter saw, and 2" top collector for the tablesaw. Also, I have an oscillating spindle sander with a 2" port that I want to add to the set.

Because of the tool configuration, my dust collector is installed in one corner of the "south" shop with a ~20' run of thin-wall PVC with six 4" branches featuring blast gates. I only use flex hose where the dust separator connects to my 4" PVC trunk and I used it where the tools actually connect to the blast gates. I only open one gate at a time to get the best suction on a given branch/machine.

The heart of the system is a 1 hp Delta AP400. It was the only dust collector I was able to find locally for a decent price. This is a pretty weak-sauce collector, but hooking it up one machine at a time was relatively effective before I tried to install a permanent system with PVC pipes and Y fittings. Also, because a lot of dust was getting past the delta filter bag, I installed a Wynn filter - money *very* well spent. I also added a chip separator on a 50 gallon can similar to a Thein type filter. As I noted before, it seemed to work OK until I added the 2" branches and hoses for the three top-collectors (two router fences and tablesaw). Again, I only use one branch at a time.

I built a new window today and the pile of sawdust that did not make it into the system is pretty disappointing. I might as well have not used the collector at all.

What to do?
Because of the machine layout, I can't move the dust collector to a more central location. I have tried to avoid the common mistakes of too much flex pipe, 90 degree bends, and using pipe and hose that are too small. The whole system is 4" PVC with ABS Y fittings, and junctions taped with 3m duct-sealing tape. I think it's pretty well set up, but clearly something's not right.

I'm not sure what to try next to improve the situation. The low hanging fruit seems to be the collector itself. 1 HP/650 cfm seems too weak and I could probably afford to upgrade to a 2 HP HFT collector, but maybe my setup is part of the problem.

I also don't want to buy another dust collector if that's not going to improve things.

Thoughts?

Last edited by RepairmanJack; 08-08-2020 at 11:48 PM.
RepairmanJack is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 11 Old 08-09-2020, 05:35 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: NE FL
Posts: 718
View DrRobert's Photo Album My Photos
I can only tell you what’s working for me.

You definitely need a bigger blower. 4” ducts are too restrictive go with 6” main ducts.
furnacefighter15 likes this.

Robert
DrRobert is offline  
post #3 of 11 Old 08-09-2020, 07:27 AM
where's my table saw?
 
woodnthings's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: SE, Michigan
Posts: 27,591
View woodnthings's Photo Album My Photos
Do a search for 2 HP dust collectors ....

Because manufacturers overstate their system's performance you will have a difficult time determining which Dc is the better one in this category.
Here's one example;
https://www.woodmagazine.com/review/...dust-collector

another from Harbor Freight:
https://www.harborfreight.com/2-hp-i...tor-97869.html

The Grizzly:
https://www.grizzly.com/products/Gri...eries/G1029Z2P

The Jet with a cannister filter:
https://www.amazon.com/Jet-DC-1200VX...5&s=hi&sr=1-11

Jet offers a 2 HP cyclone and considerably more:
https://www.jettools.com/us/en/p/jcd...hp-230v/717520

Between the impeller size and the type of filters on the 2 HP DC's, it's more difficult to compare applles to apples. According to one expert on dust collection, Bill Pentz you need about 1,000 CFM of air flow to get the fine dust:
http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/

I find that even with 2 mobile Jets at 1 1/2 HP and an overhead air filter also a Jet, there is still dust that settles around in the shop. My over the blade collection on the table saw is not current installed, but that helps a lot. It's is separately powered by a Rigid 6.5 HP ? shop vac, again over rated, but it's pretty quiet and does a good job. I have 4 of them attached to the 2 1/2" ports on my RAS, the router fences , a 6" jointer and one just for the floor dust. They were on sale for $60.00 or so a piece.

Keep in mind that fine sanding dust is the worst, bandsaws and routers are next, then table saws close behind and finally chips from jointers and planers are larger and require larger CFMs. Also understand that the "blower" that creates the suction, forces the dusty air through the filter bag or cannister. The greater the area of the filter, the easier it is for the air to pass through until it gets clogged up. Routine cleaning of the filter will keep the DC at peak performance, but then the micron size of the filter becomes important. A bag filter is not terribly efficient on small particles until it gets clogged up. Then it's not efficient for passing the air, a real catch 22! There are so many variables.

In general larger impellers, more HP in the motor, larger duct work tubes, fewer feet of ribbed hose, gentle 90 turns, blast gates to reduce run length, and "point of generation" ports and attachments will all make your system more effective and efficient.

Here are some of the methods I use in my shop:
https://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f7/d...art-1-a-20273/


The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)

Last edited by woodnthings; 08-09-2020 at 07:53 AM.
woodnthings is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 11 Old 08-09-2020, 10:54 AM
where's my table saw?
 
woodnthings's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: SE, Michigan
Posts: 27,591
View woodnthings's Photo Album My Photos
Addin to my post above ....

The Pentz site say under the heading F. PROBLEMS that 1,000 CFM is needed to extract the finest dust;
http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyc...nerscorner.php


That is still within the "stated" CFMs of some of the 2 HP DC units posted above. But unless you are measuring CFM flow with an anemometer, you really don't know what the flow is at the end of the run just after the blast gate. It may be worth the expense if you are working in a small, confined space like a basement. My first actual woodshop was in a basement and I really didn't have anything great than a shop vac. I did have a 2 window space with a powerful exhaust fan/blower in one of the windows to bring in fresh air and exhaust the air with the fine dust. That was 50 years ago and I'm still vertical with no breathing issues.


The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
woodnthings is online now  
post #5 of 11 Old 08-09-2020, 05:50 PM Thread Starter
Jack of too many trades..
 
RepairmanJack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 164
View RepairmanJack's Photo Album My Photos
Very much appreciate the advice. Weirdly... it's not fine dust that's a problem. The air down there is pretty clean even with the poor dust collection. I've already got elevated radon in the basement, so I usually have my shop windows open with a 20' box fan "box" with three pleated 20' furnace filters serving as window exhaust and an air cleaner. I also have a grizzly air filter mounted to the ceiling over the tablesaw to help things. I gave myself bronchitis about 15 years ago because I wasn't taking dust collection seriously... so now I pay careful attention to the overall air quality. The issue is really the chips and dust that just don't want to go into the vacuum system.



I get a lot of fine dust from the top of the tablesaw and from the bandsaw. The Laguna bandsaw doesn't have good blade collection but I added and aftermarket wood river (ceiling mounted) collector arm to the top of the unisaw. I switch out the top tablesaw hose to my extension wing router when I am using it. I do get some dust collection, it's just that a lot of chips and dust go elsewhere.



I guess my real (compound) question is this...



If my current collector is too weak, and I have not made any serious system setup mistakes;
...and I want to use my Wynn filter;
...and I don't necessarily want to invest in all new DC fittings;

...am I better off buying and modifying a HFT collector with dual 4" ports for $200, or should I wait and invest in a Grizzy collector (~$400) with a 6" collector. Airborne dust isn't a big problem right now, but larger chips that *should* be going into the collector are just going into the floor. and even if I get those sucked up, I'd still like to be able to extend the system for a sander, my drill press, and for a variety of hand tools. This all seems to point to my collector simply being too weak for the job.

So... should I look at building my upgraded system around a Grizzly 2hp featuring a 6" port, or a HFT 2 hp with dual 4" ports, or something else? it looks like my $230 Wynn filter will work with eitherand I really don't want to buy another one of those. What do you guys recommend.


An added complication is that my 14 yr old daughter is getting into woodworking now, and I want to keep her safe as well.

Last edited by RepairmanJack; 08-09-2020 at 05:53 PM.
RepairmanJack is offline  
post #6 of 11 Old 08-09-2020, 09:12 PM Thread Starter
Jack of too many trades..
 
RepairmanJack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 164
View RepairmanJack's Photo Album My Photos
North Shop



I've already built a new base for a new workbench.


South Shop



and looking straight north.



I've added both my Grizzly ambient air cleaner and the swing-arm collector for the table saw since I took these photos.

Last edited by RepairmanJack; 08-09-2020 at 09:16 PM. Reason: details
RepairmanJack is offline  
post #7 of 11 Old 08-10-2020, 11:13 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: West Central Indiana
Posts: 47
View HoytC's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by RepairmanJack View Post
I think my shop setup is too big for my 1hp delta dust collection (650 CFM or so). If I upgrade to a 2 hp HFT collector, can I expect better performance?

No. The HFDC has a 10" fan. Your Delta is likely the same or very close. Your duct system has very high resistance. There are probably some differences between the two blowers at high flow rates but you don't have a high flow rate.


btw, the HFDC is not a "2HP" DC, it's more like 1.5 HP and that's using the 5" inlet. At 4" in it's closer to 1HP.


Quote:
..... Wynn filter - money *very* well spent. I also added a chip separator on a 50 gallon can similar to a Thein type filter. As I noted before, it seemed to work OK until I added the 2" branches and hoses for the three top-collectors (two router fences and tablesaw).
1) How often do you clean your filter?


2) The Thein separator adds a lot of loss, about the same as 65' of 4" PVC.


3) With an underpowered DC topside collection through 2" hose is best done with a shop vac. Yes, you run it and the DC at the same time with the DC taking care of the bottom inlet.



Quote:
So... should I look at building my upgraded system around a Grizzly 2hp featuring a 6" port, or a HFT 2 hp with dual 4" ports, or something else?
If you keep your current ducting and separator the Grizzly might increase your flow rate by about 25% (it has a 12.75" fan). A wild guess at what your ducting looks like yields a flow estimate of about 230 CFM right now at your table saw, so maybe 290 CFM with the Grizzly. Not very impressive. You need a different separator and bigger ducts.


Quote:
I'd still like to be able to extend the system for a sander, my drill press, and for a variety of hand tools.
Except for the drill press all of those tools have small ports and need a lot of pressure to get airflow. That means shop vac not DC.

-----Dave
HoytC is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to HoytC For This Useful Post:
RepairmanJack (08-10-2020)
post #8 of 11 Old 08-10-2020, 12:47 PM Thread Starter
Jack of too many trades..
 
RepairmanJack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 164
View RepairmanJack's Photo Album My Photos
My lengthy reply was deleted by a forum glitch. ugh.


Thanks for the great explanation on the HFT collector. You've helped me avoid thorwing away $200. The Grizzly, combined with 6" pipes sounds like better upgrade choice - but I'll try some system improvements first.



Bottom line: I'll experiment taking out the separator.

I've not had the Wynn filter on there long enough to need to clean it yet.

It, like my new shop, has only recently gone into use.


The collector trunk looks like this:

Last edited by RepairmanJack; 08-10-2020 at 12:51 PM.
RepairmanJack is offline  
post #9 of 11 Old 08-10-2020, 01:21 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: NE FL
Posts: 718
View DrRobert's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by woodnthings View Post
The Pentz site say under the heading F. PROBLEMS that 1,000 CFM is needed to extract the finest dust;
http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyc...nerscorner.php


That is still within the "stated" CFMs of some of the 2 HP DC units posted above. But unless you are measuring CFM flow with an anemometer, you really don't know what the flow is at the end of the run just after the blast gate. It may be worth the expense if you are working in a small, confined space like a basement. My first actual woodshop was in a basement and I really didn't have anything great than a shop vac. I did have a 2 window space with a powerful exhaust fan/blower in one of the windows to bring in fresh air and exhaust the air with the fine dust. That was 50 years ago and I'm still vertical with no breathing issues.

Pentz is taling about OSHA type systems - IOW NO dust is allowed to escape.

I think I've read 350 CFM at the machine is adequate (maybe the exception is drum sander).

Bottom line, Pentz's req's are neither necessary nor practical for a hobbyist not exposed to dust 40 hours a week. Lung protection can be achieved with air filtration, ventilation and a respirator.

That said, I am planning to upgrade my system and plan to go with a ClearVue 5HP cyclone.

You are correct about blower ratings. They are "optimal" at best. What matters is what's happening at the machine. If dust and shavings are being sucked up, then its working :-)

Robert

Last edited by DrRobert; 08-10-2020 at 01:26 PM.
DrRobert is offline  
post #10 of 11 Old 08-10-2020, 03:57 PM
where's my table saw?
 
woodnthings's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: SE, Michigan
Posts: 27,591
View woodnthings's Photo Album My Photos
Arrow Fine dust is more difficult than chips ...

That 350 CFM is for chips, not fine dust:
http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyc...ust_collection


Regardless of that, most home shop operators are under the mistaken impression that since the scale of operation is so small, the amount of fine dust won't matter and that's where the Pentz site disagrees. On the pages of text Under section 9 Dust Pumps, I recall it saying that the exposure in a home shop is many (?) times that in a commercial shop where the dust is vented outside.
The exact quote:
Government air quality testing shows that small shop workers including hobbyists who vent their dust collection systems inside consistently get more fine dust exposure in a few hours of woodworking than workers in large facilities that vent outside get in months of full time work.


Not to scare anyone, just relaying the info I found.

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
woodnthings is online now  
The Following User Says Thank You to woodnthings For This Useful Post:
RepairmanJack (08-11-2020)
post #11 of 11 Old 08-11-2020, 04:30 PM Thread Starter
Jack of too many trades..
 
RepairmanJack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 164
View RepairmanJack's Photo Album My Photos
Here, here! I was careless about 16 years back and ended up with serious bronchitis from birch plywood dust. I was trying to build some cabinets and shelves over a holiday week. I got so congested, I was out for a whole week and I could barely breathe. Never again.


My goal is good central collection at the tools, shop air filter/circulator for the air, and filtered exhaust outside (when needed). I try not to blow *all* my cool/warm air outside, but I'd rather condition my breezeway than get bronchitis again.


Compared to the stock dust bag that Wynn filter does an incredible job of keeping the dust from dispersing through the shop. I'm really most concerned about the superfine dust that isn't getting collected from the bandsaw, and the dust from the top of the tablesaw. Even the router table fences don't concern me as much - they just make a mess.

Last edited by RepairmanJack; 08-11-2020 at 04:35 PM.
RepairmanJack is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome