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post #1 of 9 Old 03-12-2013, 06:01 PM Thread Starter
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New shop system design questions/issues

Hi all

This is my second posting. Lots of good advice from the first and from all I have read and learned on here and related sites. I had originally planned to use 4" PVC as my main and branch trunks, but after lots of reading, would like to upsize.

Here is what may be my limiting factor. I have a ~12 year old Grizzly G1029 DC:
  • 2HP
  • 1182 CFM rated
  • 5" inlet
Since the inlet is 5", I am assuming that any ducting larger than 5" would only be a waste of money as the "choke point" would be the inlet to the DC itself. If that is NOT the case, then I may look at 6" PVC, but if it IS the case, I plan to go with a 5" metal system.


Grainger has 26 gauge SnapLoc pipe, 5 5' pieces (25') for $65 or about $2.60 a foot (That's a slight discount to their catalog price due to a corporate discount I get). 24 gauge is $3.60, and I think the 26 gauge will work for me.


Oneida has the 90 degree elbows and wye fittings. Can I assume that these fittings will work with the Snap Lock? And cha-ching, while these look like very high quality fittings, is there a cheaper source for home shop use?


I am also thinking of ordering a Super Dust Deputy which has a 5" inlet and 6" outlet (which I would have to reduce to 5" to match my DC inlet).


My main/branches would consist of an initial straight run out and my planar and jointer would be able to be connected early in the system on the main branch before any significant turns. I'd have three other branches for less chip/dust intensive tools (drill press, band saw).


Perhaps the most problematic branch would be for the table saw. I would need to branch off the main at 45 degrees then 45 again to go up and over the home's HVAC ducts and then to the overhead drop near the saw. In that run, I would have a wye off the main, two 45s to go up and over, and an elbow for the drop about 15 ' away. My TS only has a 2-1/2" port so I will probably address that at some point down the road.


I'm sure your advice and input will generate other question, but to reiterate, I THINK my 5" inlet may be the limiting factor. Today's Grizzly 2HP machines have 6" inlets, and I wonder if the inlet plate from a more current model (G1029Z) might be a direct replacement for my older plate. IF SO, I could look at a 6" PVC design as an alternative.


Thoughts,advice, input? Thanks in advance.
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post #2 of 9 Old 03-12-2013, 07:21 PM
where's my table saw?
 
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looks like you're thinkin' about all the angles

as well as the duct size. I don't think Graingers will be your best cost source for the 26 GA pipe. 6" will be more common possibly anyway. Menards or a heating HVAC wholesaler may co-operate for the pipe, at least that's where I go. If you change your inlet size from 5" to 6" that will improve air flow in the pipes a great deal, but I don't know enough about the machine blower type and size to say if it will affect the machine itself.

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
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post #3 of 9 Old 03-12-2013, 07:36 PM
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Check Penn State Industries too for ducting. There are a number of threads on Thien baffles that you should look at.
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post #4 of 9 Old 03-12-2013, 10:57 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by woodnthings View Post
as well as the duct size. I don't think Graingers will be your best cost source for the 26 GA pipe. 6" will be more common possibly anyway. Menards or a heating HVAC wholesaler may co-operate for the pipe, at least that's where I go. If you change your inlet size from 5" to 6" that will improve air flow in the pipes a great deal, but I don't know enough about the machine blower type and size to say if it will affect the machine itself.
Thanks. I don't have a Menards real close, but did check their site and the Grainger price is actually cheaper comparing like products. As i look at the Grainger product, it's called GreenSeam Plus and has some pretty cool features--self-sealing seams and rubber gaskets where two pipes are joined together.

Menards sells a different brand called UltraSeal.

Comparing prices:

Menards 5" Ultra Seal: $3.60/ft
Grainger 5": GreenSeam Plus: $2.60/ft

Penn State Economy 5": $2.90/ft

Penn State Spiral 5": 3.70/ft


Menards 6" Ultra Seal: $4.12/ft
Grainger 6": GreenSeam Plus: $3.08/ft

Penn State Economy: $3.20/ft

Menards Spiral 6": $4.52/ft
Penn State Spiral 6": $4.20/ft


And for Schedule 20 S&D (Green Stuff (did not find white to compare):
Lowes 6": $2.78/ft
Menards 6: $2.00/ft (Sale price)

I didn't have time to explore fitting prices yet.


I'll get in touch with Grizzly and see what they say about a 5" to 6" inlet conversion.

The Oneida Super Dust Deputy has a 5" inlet too which seems a bit odd.
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post #5 of 9 Old 03-12-2013, 10:58 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shop Dad View Post
Check Penn State Industries too for ducting. There are a number of threads on Thien baffles that you should look at.
I have perused a couple of those threads. The Thien baffle looks pretty cool.
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post #6 of 9 Old 03-15-2013, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzhazzard View Post
Thanks. I don't have a Menards real close, but did check their site and the Grainger price is actually cheaper comparing like products. As i look at the Grainger product, it's called GreenSeam Plus and has some pretty cool features--self-sealing seams and rubber gaskets where two pipes are joined together.

Menards sells a different brand called UltraSeal.

Comparing prices:

Menards 5" Ultra Seal: $3.60/ft
Grainger 5": GreenSeam Plus: $2.60/ft

Penn State Economy 5": $2.90/ft

Penn State Spiral 5": 3.70/ft


Menards 6" Ultra Seal: $4.12/ft
Grainger 6": GreenSeam Plus: $3.08/ft

Penn State Economy: $3.20/ft

Menards Spiral 6": $4.52/ft
Penn State Spiral 6": $4.20/ft


And for Schedule 20 S&D (Green Stuff (did not find white to compare):
Lowes 6": $2.78/ft
Menards 6: $2.00/ft (Sale price)

I didn't have time to explore fitting prices yet.


I'll get in touch with Grizzly and see what they say about a 5" to 6" inlet conversion.

The Oneida Super Dust Deputy has a 5" inlet too which seems a bit odd.

Pipe is cheap, quality fittings are not. I buy 5" snaplock pipe at a local HVAC supply house. A 5' length of 30 gage is $6 and change, and 26 gage is $10 and change. I use the 26 gage. I occasionally buy laterals (wye's) from them, but just as often I get them from Oneida Air systems.

I always buy my ells from Oneida because they are 5 segment adjustable to almost any angle, and most importantly they are 1.75xD radius. When you've adjusted them to the angle you want, whether it be 90, 45 or something in between, just run a bead of silicone caulk around the joint segments, smooth it with your finger and you will have a neat, air tight fitting.

And do not underestimate the value of long radius bends for keeping line losses down, especially if you have a marginal DC as you do. Don't bother with big box stores for fittings. All you will find there are sloppily fabricated fittings, 1xD radius ells, 30 gage (sometimes 26 gage), and rarely 5".
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post #7 of 9 Old 03-15-2013, 11:13 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by retired2 View Post
Pipe is cheap, quality fittings are not. I buy 5" snaplock pipe at a local HVAC supply house. A 5' length of 30 gage is $6 and change, and 26 gage is $10 and change. I use the 26 gage. I occasionally buy laterals (wye's) from them, but just as often I get them from Oneida Air systems.

I always buy my ells from Oneida because they are 5 segment adjustable to almost any angle, and most importantly they are 1.75xD radius. When you've adjusted them to the angle you want, whether it be 90, 45 or something in between, just run a bead of silicone caulk around the joint segments, smooth it with your finger and you will have a neat, air tight fitting.

And do not underestimate the value of long radius bends for keeping line losses down, especially if you have a marginal DC as you do. Don't bother with big box stores for fittings. All you will find there are sloppily fabricated fittings, 1xD radius ells, 30 gage (sometimes 26 gage), and rarely 5".

Thanks for that great input. The DC is somewhat low end I suppose, but should work for my purposes until it gives out. I bought it in 1997. I also plan to fit it with a Wynne filter and an Oneida super Dust Deputy separator.

I checked with Grizzly and they do have a replacement inlet that will take me from 5" to 6" and they said there were no technical issues related to the upgrade. I understand the issue of costly fittings and I also like the Oneida fittings. It won't be cheap, but after years of being too busy to do any serious woodworking, things have changed (for the better), and I am looking forward to getting back into the hobby. And with that, I need to get better dust collection. I already knew that, but when my 17 year old son came in the other day and said, "Dad, you gotta do something in here. I can taste the wood when I walk in," he reempasized my believe that it was time to suck it up and spend some bucks.
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post #8 of 9 Old 03-15-2013, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by buzzhazzard View Post
Thanks for that great input. The DC is somewhat low end I suppose, but should work for my purposes until it gives out. I bought it in 1997. I also plan to fit it with a Wynne filter and an Oneida super Dust Deputy separator.

I checked with Grizzly and they do have a replacement inlet that will take me from 5" to 6" and they said there were no technical issues related to the upgrade. I understand the issue of costly fittings and I also like the Oneida fittings. It won't be cheap, but after years of being too busy to do any serious woodworking, things have changed (for the better), and I am looking forward to getting back into the hobby. And with that, I need to get better dust collection. I already knew that, but when my 17 year old son came in the other day and said, "Dad, you gotta do something in here. I can taste the wood when I walk in," he reempasized my believe that it was time to suck it up and spend some bucks.
Here is a post I made on Phil Thien's forum. It was in response to some discussion and questions from a member who was considering upgrading from 5" to 6" mains. I realize in your case, you are starting from scratch, so the cost analysis is different for sure, but from a practical standpoint 1-1/2 and 2 HP DC's reach a point of rapidly diminishing returns at 5". The response below will help quantify that.

.....................................

"I believe 5" plumbing is all you need for most dust collectors up to 2HP. There may be some exceptions to that rule, but not many. So, to help you folks who are considering spending good money and time to replace 5" pipe with 6", I did a quick little exercise to put the hoped for improvement into perspective.

I created a hypothetical system with 3 ft. of flex hose at the tool end and another 3 ft. at the DC end. In between, I assumed a run that includes 20 ft. of straight pipe, four 90 degree ells, and one 45 degree ell. The SP loss for that system with 5" pipe is 4.35". If you replaced everything with 6" pipe, the SP loss drops to 4.14". That's a 2% gain in SP. You will never feel or see that difference in performance without a test instrument.

Using a typical fan curve, that SP gain will translate into an additional 50 CFM or less. You might be able to see a performance change of several hundred CFM, but not 50!

You probably have a different piping configuration than my hypothetical system, but I suspect running the numbers will yield nearly the same results.

And there are other issues to consider. If you only have a 5" outlet on your blower, then I'm not sure there is anything to be gained by going to 6" on the inlet side. Also, when you go up in pipe size, FPM's drop, and if you can't maintain a velocity of at least 3500 FPM you risk having dirt settle out in your mains.

Another word of caution. A lot of DC manufacturers give you a "Y" that splits the nominal inlet into two smaller sizes. That does not mean the system can handle two lines of the smaller size simultaneously. So, two 4" lines running from a 5" DC inlet are not going to be very productive. I doubt anyone is actually doing that, but the same comment applies if you are splitting your 5" line into two 4" lines at the machine end. "
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post #9 of 9 Old 03-15-2013, 12:52 PM Thread Starter
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Here is a post I made on Phil Thien's forum. It was in response to some discussion and questions from a member who was considering upgrading from 5" to 6" mains. I realize in your case, you are starting from scratch, so the cost analysis is different for sure, but from a practical standpoint 1-1/2 and 2 HP DC's reach a point of rapidly diminishing returns at 5". The response below will help quantify that.

.....................................

"I believe 5" plumbing is all you need for most dust collectors up to 2HP. There may be some exceptions to that rule, but not many. So, to help you folks who are considering spending good money and time to replace 5" pipe with 6", I did a quick little exercise to put the hoped for improvement into perspective.

I created a hypothetical system with 3 ft. of flex hose at the tool end and another 3 ft. at the DC end. In between, I assumed a run that includes 20 ft. of straight pipe, four 90 degree ells, and one 45 degree ell. The SP loss for that system with 5" pipe is 4.35". If you replaced everything with 6" pipe, the SP loss drops to 4.14". That's a 2% gain in SP. You will never feel or see that difference in performance without a test instrument.

Using a typical fan curve, that SP gain will translate into an additional 50 CFM or less. You might be able to see a performance change of several hundred CFM, but not 50!

You probably have a different piping configuration than my hypothetical system, but I suspect running the numbers will yield nearly the same results.

And there are other issues to consider. If you only have a 5" outlet on your blower, then I'm not sure there is anything to be gained by going to 6" on the inlet side. Also, when you go up in pipe size, FPM's drop, and if you can't maintain a velocity of at least 3500 FPM you risk having dirt settle out in your mains.

Another word of caution. A lot of DC manufacturers give you a "Y" that splits the nominal inlet into two smaller sizes. That does not mean the system can handle two lines of the smaller size simultaneously. So, two 4" lines running from a 5" DC inlet are not going to be very productive. I doubt anyone is actually doing that, but the same comment applies if you are splitting your 5" line into two 4" lines at the machine end. "
OK, you sold me on 5". As I thought about it, the outlet to the DC is 5" and the inlet to a super dust dog is 5", so those are both choke points to a 6" system anyway. Thanks.
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