My Thein Separator - Page 2 - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
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post #21 of 31 Old 03-10-2013, 12:34 PM Thread Starter
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I received my Wynn Spunbond filter a couple of days ago. At first I thought I'd have to make a plywood donut to sit between the DC and and filter in order for the filter to sit properly, but once you apply the turnbuckles, the thick rubber gasket on the filter squishes and seals (from what I can tell anyway). The Wynn filters aren't cheap, but w/a period cleaning with compressed air, they SHOULD be a lifetime filter, especially for a hobbyist like me that doesn't generate sawdust but a few hours a month.

I was AMAZED at how clogged the stock filter bag was. I guess it never occured to me to remove it and shake it out. Duh. I didn't see much dust in the bottom of the bag so I thought the Thein was catching it all. The dust caking the bag was mostly MDF dust, which as we all know, is like talcum powder. Ocassionaly, I'd shake the bag good and watch a little dust fall into the bag below...no big deal, I thought. Note to self: Don't build anything out of MDF if you can help it.

But when I removed the bag to install the Wynn? Holy smokes, there must've been 5 pounds of dust, an inch thick, just CAKED into the bag. I really don't think I could've removed it all since the inner bag material is sort of "porous" and the dust was in there good. I just trashed it.

Ironically, I'm neck-deep in gluing up projects now; all the milling/cutting has been done, so I can't test the filter properly.

I did scrape some sawdust out of the bottom of my TS and sucked it up. From what I can tell, suction seems to be marginally improved, but it wasn't an issue to begin with. When using the DC to clean my workbench it will suck up screwdrivers and pliers if I'm not careful...the HF DC is a beast. I have 20 feet of flexible, 4-inch hose and due to my shop layout of every single thing being on wheels, the hoses are always running here and there; I'd imagine if I had a hard-piped layout (someday!) the suction would be even better, but like I said, there's plenty there now. If anything, the DC SEEMS to be a bit quieter now, but that's a very subjective observation. I'm looking forward to using the Thein and the Wynn more in the near future.

Last edited by mikeintexas; 03-10-2013 at 12:37 PM.
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post #22 of 31 Old 03-13-2013, 01:16 PM
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Mike -- can you take a guess at how much the addition of the thein separator reduces your air flow as compared to the intake into the HF vac?

Thanks,
Dave
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post #23 of 31 Old 03-14-2013, 04:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninefingers View Post
Mike -- can you take a guess at how much the addition of the thein separator reduces your air flow as compared to the intake into the HF vac?

Thanks,
Dave
No guessing needed.... If you go to this link, and go to reply # 99, the gentleman did test his system.... His dust collector, a delta 50-760, ran at 783 cfm without the separator, and at depending on the pipe size he used, anywhere from 417-434 cfm. Now, that is quite a bit of a reduction, but the separator does keep the filter ALOT cleaner, therefore giving you more consistent CFM. I have a thien topper, and swear by it.

hope this helps.....

Fabian

I used to be fairly indecisive, but now....... I'm not so sure.
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post #24 of 31 Old 03-14-2013, 08:22 PM
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No guessing needed.... If you go to this link, and go to reply # 99, the gentleman did test his system.... His dust collector, a delta 50-760, ran at 783 cfm without the separator, and at depending on the pipe size he used, anywhere from 417-434 cfm. Now, that is quite a bit of a reduction, but the separator does keep the filter ALOT cleaner, therefore giving you more consistent CFM. I have a thien topper, and swear by it.

hope this helps.....
Thank you, I haven't been called a gentleman for a while!

On a more serious note, it is somewhat humorous to watch everyone (myself included) find all these clever ways to improve the efficiency of Phil Thien's basic design. Some work, some don't, but those that do generally only make incremental improvements.

In the end it is the condition of your filter that has far more effect on the performance of your system than anything else. I didn't even bother to get my anemometer out and take readings, but once my filter bag had developed some cake, an anemometer wasn't necessary to see how badly the performance was degrading. Even the sound level was much lower.

When you add filter cake to the 30-40% losses caused by a separator, you are talking about some serious performance loss and those 3-5 HP DC's start to look very attractive. Of course most of us live with a budget and try to make do with 1-1/2 HP systems.

So, if your using a separator, regardless of design, you need to keep your filter as clean as possible.
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post #25 of 31 Old 03-16-2013, 04:16 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninefingers View Post
Mike -- can you take a guess at how much the addition of the thein separator reduces your air flow as compared to the intake into the HF vac?

Thanks,
Dave
Sorry for the late update. I had computer woes at home and had to wait until the weekend to sort it out.

Honestly, I'm not sure how much the Thein reduces airflow. To me (before getting the Wynn filter, using the stock bag filter) it seemed the same as before without the Thein. My Thein setup is pretty air-tight. I'm sure nothing is TRULY 100% airtight, but I'd wager that mine is close. So theoretically (in my small brain...) I've got no air flow loss. That said, I've got 20 feet of flexible hose connecting the tool to the Thein to the DC, so there must be some airflow loss, but to me, it seems to be the same.

I've used the setup a little bit since installing the Wynn. Now that I don't have a totally caked filter bag anymore, possibly airflow has improved a bit, since I seem to be getting more fine dust in the bag (but ZERO sawdust/big stuff). I'm really not sure though if I was getting that much fine dust before, but it was just caking the filter bag and I never noticed. I'm sort of "starting over" now that I've got a new Wynn filter, new clear plastic bag and totally cleaned out Thein.
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post #26 of 31 Old 03-30-2013, 01:36 AM
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Thanks, this is great. I just got a 1 HP single bag grizzly that really needs this. I had no idea folks were making one.
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post #27 of 31 Old 03-30-2013, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by mikeintexas View Post
Sorry for the late update. I had computer woes at home and had to wait until the weekend to sort it out.

Honestly, I'm not sure how much the Thein reduces airflow. To me (before getting the Wynn filter, using the stock bag filter) it seemed the same as before without the Thein. My Thein setup is pretty air-tight. I'm sure nothing is TRULY 100% airtight, but I'd wager that mine is close. So theoretically (in my small brain...) I've got no air flow loss. That said, I've got 20 feet of flexible hose connecting the tool to the Thein to the DC, so there must be some airflow loss, but to me, it seems to be the same.

I've used the setup a little bit since installing the Wynn. Now that I don't have a totally caked filter bag anymore, possibly airflow has improved a bit, since I seem to be getting more fine dust in the bag (but ZERO sawdust/big stuff). I'm really not sure though if I was getting that much fine dust before, but it was just caking the filter bag and I never noticed. I'm sort of "starting over" now that I've got a new Wynn filter, new clear plastic bag and totally cleaned out Thein.

I can assure you in a system with a clean filter, the Thien separator does impose some pretty heavy losses. In my case, an anemometer showed that loss to be 38%. That number may vary a little from one system to another simply due to all the variables. Even Phil Thien wii agree the losses are not insignificant, but that is the price to be paid for the benefits.

When a filter develops considerable cake, some of which is necessary for it to perform properly, the Thien separator ceases to be the big choke point because the filter is causing the biggest loss.

For the writer using a 1HP DC, a Thien separator is probably going to require you to move the DC from machine to machine. Forget about using a 1HP DC for a fully plumbed setup.
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post #28 of 31 Old 03-31-2013, 01:11 AM
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thanks. So far it is just the saw. I have a cardboard chain barrel measuring 25 high and 15.75 diameter. Will that be sufficient?
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post #29 of 31 Old 03-31-2013, 10:29 AM
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thanks. So far it is just the saw. I have a cardboard chain barrel measuring 25 high and 15.75 diameter. Will that be sufficient?
It should be, but since the Thien separator is not an exact science a lot depends on trial and error.

With that said, I want to warn you again - don't expect very much from a 1HP DC. I'm pretty sure it is only rated at 650CFM, and that rating is probably with no hose or a filter bag attached. That is how manufacturers inflate their ratings. So, in the real world with a few feet of flex hose and a Thien separator, you are probably at the limits of what this DC can do. Don't waste your time or money trying to put this DC in fixed location with rigid pipe to equipment isolated by blast gates. You need a minimum 1-1/2HP 1250CFM machine for that kind of service, and even a machine with these specs will be marginal.

Last edited by retired2; 03-31-2013 at 01:58 PM.
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post #30 of 31 Old 04-01-2013, 02:48 PM Thread Starter
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The Wynn filter isn't cheap, but you I believe you do get what you paid for in this case. I have noticed much less dust coating everything in the garage since installing the Wynn. Also, the air coming out of the stock filter bag used to smell slightly musty...I'm sure the fact there was 2" of cake on the inside had something to do with it. The air coming out of the Wynn filter just smells...clean and "filtery." The filter has a smell, but it is not unpleasant...sort of like a chemically-medicinally clean type smell. MUCH better than that musty-type smell from the stock bag. I'm quite pleased with w/the Wynn.
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post #31 of 31 Old 05-22-2013, 09:48 PM
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My 1Hp HF DC does a good job with my Thien separator on a single machine. I have a 2Hp connected to the rest of my equipment through another Thien separator. Love the Thien separators.

Bob making sawdust in SW Louisiana
with a EX-21
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