Dust Collector Filter Idea - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 15 Old 02-11-2015, 01:30 PM Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 14
View diver165's Photo Album My Photos
Dust Collector Filter Idea

I am getting a Harbor Freight dust collector this weekend. (20% off Coupon will be valid valentines day weekend). Anyway, I know it comes with a fabric bag that is not very efficient. I am going to modify the collector with a Thien baffle with trashcan. The problem is I just can't afford a giant filter like a Wynn. I am already buying a dust collector and will be buying a new air compressor this spring. I was wondering if anyone has made a filter using pleated HVAC filters. Like a box with 2 or even 4 filters (one on each side) Granted it won't have the surface area of a Wynn, but you could very well replace them monthly for a year before you equal out the price. And couple that with the Thien or Cyclone mods, I can't see how they would clog up very fast to quite honest.

Surely I haven't thought of something original...lol. I just haven't been able to find anything with my searches.
diver165 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 15 Old 02-11-2015, 02:08 PM
where's my table saw?
 
woodnthings's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: SE, Michigan
Posts: 27,289
View woodnthings's Photo Album My Photos
I have had the same idea

I may have posted it here somewhere or discussed it with a woodworker friend. Use 4 pleated funrance filters with a plywood top and bottom. You can get them cheap at Home Depot. I can't tell if the price is for one filter or a 3 pack:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Rheem-20-...2020/203140809

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
woodnthings is online now  
post #3 of 15 Old 02-11-2015, 02:15 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Midwest
Posts: 1,885
View woodchux's Photo Album My Photos
That is Home Depots 3 filters in one package at $7.74. Be safe.
woodchux is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 15 Old 02-11-2015, 02:53 PM Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 14
View diver165's Photo Album My Photos
I may do a write up on it. I'll get to work on it after I get my DC this weekend.
diver165 is offline  
post #5 of 15 Old 02-11-2015, 03:51 PM
Village Idiot
 
epicfail48's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Springfield MO
Posts: 4,933
View epicfail48's Photo Album My Photos
http://woodgears.ca/dust_collector/v1.html

Similar idea seemed to work out pretty well for him. Filters a filter after all, if you can shoot air through it should work

I need cheaper hobby
etsy.com/shop/projectepicfail
epicfail48 is offline  
post #6 of 15 Old 02-11-2015, 04:29 PM
Senior Member
 
hwebb99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,883
View hwebb99's Photo Album My Photos
Dust Collector Filter Idea

After a year you would would be in the hole. A Wynn filter filters smaller particles, and last longer.
hwebb99 is offline  
post #7 of 15 Old 02-11-2015, 04:40 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Saxonburg
Posts: 246
View gmcsmoke's Photo Album My Photos
I researched this to an end awhile ago looking at truck air filters and gave up. either they didn't have the same micron rating or the cost was much higher. $120 for a wynn is well worth it when you factor in how long they last.
gmcsmoke is offline  
post #8 of 15 Old 02-11-2015, 09:22 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Seattle area
Posts: 332
View jdonhowe's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Filters a filter after all, if you can shoot air through it should work
With all due respect, I have to disagree.

First, filter efficiency is a measurement of the ability of the filter to trap particles of a given size, and depends on the pore size of the filter. As a rule, higher efficiency filters (able to trap very small particles) cost more than those with low efficiency (that trap large particles only).

The Home Depot filters have an "FPR 4" rating. FPR seems to be an in-house HD "standard" that cannot be compared with accepted ratings, such as MERV. FPR 4 is claimed to be "good", and can filter "large particles like household dust and lint, and dust mites..." The size of a dust mite is about 250 to 300 microns. Given that degree of filtration efficiency, the OP would be better sticking with the bag filter that comes with the HF DC.

Second, you need to consider the amount of filter surface area. The smaller the area, the greater the resistance to air flow out of the DC, and the lower the DC performance. You can probably design a box with 4 HD furnace filters, and not have too much resistance to air flow, but that's only because the pore size is so huge that it doesn't restrict flow to air (or small particles).

A 20"x20"x1" HD filter has about 3.9 square feet of filtration area. The Wynn filter has 274 sq ft of filtration area, so if you can find a furnace filter with the same efficiency as the Wynn, you'll need about 70 furnace filters to allow the same air flow.

The bottom line:
1) There's no easy or cheap home brew way of getting the efficiency- both in particle filtration and air flow- of a cartridge air filter.
2) Cheap ($2.58) HD furnace filters aren't worth anything as far as dust collection is concerned. They probably do more harm than good, since the they'll allow the DC to keep circulating small particles in the shop air.
3) That said, I do think there's a place for a decent furnace filter in the shop: as a pre-filter in an air cleaner to trap larger particles and extend the useful life of a more expensive final filter.

Just my .02
jdonhowe is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to jdonhowe For This Useful Post:
ORBlackFZ1 (02-24-2015)
post #9 of 15 Old 02-12-2015, 03:31 AM
Village Idiot
 
epicfail48's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Springfield MO
Posts: 4,933
View epicfail48's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdonhowe View Post
With all due respect, I have to disagree.

First, filter efficiency is a measurement of the ability of the filter to trap particles of a given size, and depends on the pore size of the filter. As a rule, higher efficiency filters (able to trap very small particles) cost more than those with low efficiency (that trap large particles only).

The Home Depot filters have an "FPR 4" rating. FPR seems to be an in-house HD "standard" that cannot be compared with accepted ratings, such as MERV. FPR 4 is claimed to be "good", and can filter "large particles like household dust and lint, and dust mites..." The size of a dust mite is about 250 to 300 microns. Given that degree of filtration efficiency, the OP would be better sticking with the bag filter that comes with the HF DC.

Second, you need to consider the amount of filter surface area. The smaller the area, the greater the resistance to air flow out of the DC, and the lower the DC performance. You can probably design a box with 4 HD furnace filters, and not have too much resistance to air flow, but that's only because the pore size is so huge that it doesn't restrict flow to air (or small particles).

A 20"x20"x1" HD filter has about 3.9 square feet of filtration area. The Wynn filter has 274 sq ft of filtration area, so if you can find a furnace filter with the same efficiency as the Wynn, you'll need about 70 furnace filters to allow the same air flow.

The bottom line:
1) There's no easy or cheap home brew way of getting the efficiency- both in particle filtration and air flow- of a cartridge air filter.
2) Cheap ($2.58) HD furnace filters aren't worth anything as far as dust collection is concerned. They probably do more harm than good, since the they'll allow the DC to keep circulating small particles in the shop air.
3) That said, I do think there's a place for a decent furnace filter in the shop: as a pre-filter in an air cleaner to trap larger particles and extend the useful life of a more expensive final filter.

Just my .02
No offense taken, and i hope you wont take offense with my disagreeing with your disagreement. I wont deny that a higher filter grade will work better than a low grade one, nor will i deny that a larger filter is a better choice than a smaller one, thats comparing apples to oranges.

Say you have 2 filters, x and y. Filter x is a car air filter lets say, rated to filter particles down to 5 microns. Filter y is also rated to 5 microns, but is meant for a HVAC unit. Both filters are going to filter particles equally well, and given that automotive filters generally have tighter pleats odds are both are nearly the same in filter area, the only difference is the intended application.

Sorry if i seem churlish, i just feel the need to explain my position. Id be willing to wager that if you set up a filter box with a a few good furnace filters (allergen or HEPA rated filters, not those crappy green filament things) and put it head to head with a wynn filter, youd get the same result.

EDIT: Just went and checked wynns site, and it looks like the smaller filters im guessing are meant for your standard, smaller hobbiest grade DC the filter area is rated at 100 square feet. A quick, very inaccurate calculation of a 20x25x4 furnace filter (((20*25*5)/12))*.6[that would be my estimate of how much of the volume of the cube is actual filtering area]), i get a filtering surface area of 100 square feet. Get one of those that are rated for allergen reduction and add a box, and boom, ghetto wynn filter

I need cheaper hobby
etsy.com/shop/projectepicfail

Last edited by epicfail48; 02-12-2015 at 03:39 AM. Reason: Forgot something
epicfail48 is offline  
post #10 of 15 Old 02-12-2015, 09:48 AM Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 14
View diver165's Photo Album My Photos
To be honest. LOL I am actually a Respiratory Therapist and just a hobbyist wood worker. I know all to well the problems associated with inhaling particulates. I was just tossing an idea out there to satisfy my curiosity. I didn't know if there was really that much dust being exhausted by the HF DC when using a Thien baffle or Cyclone to warrant a Wynn filter.

Now if I wasn't going to modify it I would definitely use a Wynn and not think twice.
diver165 is offline  
post #11 of 15 Old 02-12-2015, 01:50 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Seattle area
Posts: 332
View jdonhowe's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Sorry if i seem churlish, i just feel the need to explain my position. Id be willing to wager that if you set up a filter box with a a few good furnace filters (allergen or HEPA rated filters, not those crappy green filament things) and put it head to head with a wynn filter, youd get the same result.
Not churlish at all- I think we're on the same wavelength. The example I used was the cheapo HD filter that another poster mentioned- I didn't intend to pin that on you! I agree completely that with comparable media- a good HEPA or high MERV furnace filter will trap the same particles as a Wynn-type filter.

I am a bit confused about your calculation for furnace filter area, though. I was looking at a picture of a MERV 12 20x25x4" filter (CF200A1016) on the Honeywell site, and count 14 to 15 pleats- they say that filter is actually 4.5 inches deep. Let's say with 15 pleats there are 30 surfaces (one up, one down), each 4.5 inches wide and 25 inches long. So, the total filtering area is 4.5x30x25=3375 sq. inches. 3375 Sq.in x 1 Sq.ft/144 Sq.in = 23.4 Sq.ft per filter, so you still need four filters to get close to 100 Sq.ft., if my math is correct. At $30-$40 each, you're getting into cartridge-type costs, so I'm not sure how much you save, esp. considering the furnace filters have to be replaced periodically. Please don't hesitate to correct me, particularly if my math is wrong.

Quote:
I didn't know if there was really that much dust being exhausted by the HF DC when using a Thien baffle or Cyclone to warrant a Wynn filter.
From what I have read, particularly on the Bill Pentz and Phil Thien web sites, neither a Thien separator nor a high powered (3+hp) DC with a Pentz type cyclone will remove all of the really fine particles. The Pentz design can apparently get down to 5 microns, but note that the "Pentz approved" Clearvue does have a final filter.

My take is the advantage of a pre-separator (Thien or cyclone) is that it captures most of the dust before it reaches the filter, so it puts less of a burden for filtering on the filter itself. This means it won't clog or cake as quickly, and it will allow good air flow for a longer time before needing cleaning (or replacement for a disposable filter). A second advantage is that a separator will also trap large debris (wood chunks, screws, etc.) that can get sucked up and possible damage the DC impeller.

For completeness, you could make an SEP system by eliminating the filter and venting directly outside. (Somebody Else's Problem, courtesy Douglas Adams)
jdonhowe is offline  
post #12 of 15 Old 02-12-2015, 03:53 PM
Village Idiot
 
epicfail48's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Springfield MO
Posts: 4,933
View epicfail48's Photo Album My Photos
I was ball parking the surface are for the furnace filter, I couldn't find anything that actually said how much filtering area there was in any of them. I just took the total available volume and assumed that with the pleats that 60% of the volume was filtering surface area. Like I said, really, really rough calculation

I need cheaper hobby
etsy.com/shop/projectepicfail
epicfail48 is offline  
post #13 of 15 Old 02-12-2015, 04:27 PM
sawdustsnifer
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 69
View sawdustsnifer's Photo Album My Photos
Dust collector idea

hi all,
I started the thread on "basic dust collection help" so I noticed this thread and there does seem to be some over lap. There is another thread " dust collection" which also seems to be some over lap so I will be jumping back and forth, taking notes on everything. You might also want to. Just a thought!
sawdust sniffer

The saw dust sniffer: "The table saw always wins!"
sawdustsnifer is offline  
post #14 of 15 Old 02-13-2015, 08:24 AM
Really underground garage
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: mnts of Va
Posts: 2,552
View BWSmith's Photo Album My Photos
Just an observation,please correct me if this wrong?

HVAC filters generally aren't 'sposed to be cleaned....vs...spending monies on a Wynn cartridge filter which can be?

Which leads into,how effective and what damage is being done to a pleated filter when cleaning?And is this cleaning specific.....IOW's,if I'm a klutz and shoot 125# of shop air at the filter does that basically destroy it?

For the record all three of our DC's have cartridge filters.It scares me to clean them.....just have to be so careful.Am seriously considering building a baghouse style next,with appropriate "industrial" rated bag material,not the HF stuff.And yes we have a sewing machine capable of sewing leather,so DC bags ain't nuthin.The Singer machine was 75$,got it from the original owner,it's a 1957(too lazy to look at the model #).

Bag shakers,within a baghouse would be easypeasy build,just sayin from a complete laziness standpoint.The bennys are that the baghouse can be shaped/sized to wherever much more efficiently than the usual,round,cartridges.

Those who say it cannot be done shouldn't interrupt the people doing it.

Last edited by BWSmith; 02-13-2015 at 08:27 AM.
BWSmith is offline  
post #15 of 15 Old 02-24-2015, 03:40 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Portland Oregon Metro Area
Posts: 474
View ORBlackFZ1's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by diver165 View Post
And couple that with the Thien or Cyclone mods, I can't see how they would clog up very fast to quite honest.
You have a very interesting observation. Here is my experience with adding a Thien Top Hat to my DC. I created a Thien Top Hat in the spring of 2014. Here is my thread: http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f32/p...ormance-59625/. (You can read the details, if you have some time. It is pretty long.)

After using the Top Hat for the last year, I have only had to clean my Jet DC-1100 canister twice after creating about 1800 gallons of saw dust (45 gallons per barrel X 40 barrel empties). The saw dust bag plus the amount of saw dust in the canister amounted to less than 2 gallons of saw dust that got past the Top Hat (roughly 0.1 percent of the total saw dust. Your "gallon-age" may vary depending on the dimensions of your Top Hat and the unique specifications of your dust collection hoses, pipes, impeller, motor, etc.)

I work with rough lumber that has to be jointed, planed, resawn and planed again. On those days, I sometimes empty my 45 gallon barrel four (4) times, and fill up three (3) 55 gallon garbage bags.

So, your observation is correct that with the correct pre-separator or cyclone, your dust collector shouldn't be putting many "fines" into your shop air. But there will still be some......

That is why I also have:
1. Dylos DC 1100 (http://www.dylosproducts.com/wocrandshair.html) that monitors the particle count in my shop

2. Two (2) Jet AFS-1000b units that filter out the particles in the shop air

3. And when the Dylos gets too high, I have a 2500 cfm 20" exhaust fan at one end of the shop with a 6' x 8' overhead door at the other end.

Quote:
Originally Posted by diver165 View Post
To be honest. LOL I am actually a Respiratory Therapist and just a hobbyist wood worker.
As a "Respiratory Therapist and just a hobbyist wood worker", you probably council patients on being overly cautious as being the better choice in the long run......

Woodworkers are very creative people. They can find more ways to save a buck than my grandmother, who lived through the Great Depression saving pennies....So, if you can built a cheaper solution that provides the same or better quality, then please do. Just make sure that you tell us about it, so that we can learn and benefit also.

By the way, have you heard the joke about the Respiratory Therapist and the woodworker? (I haven't either, I just thought that you might have one for us.)
ORBlackFZ1 is offline  
Reply

Tags
cyclone, dust collection, filter, thien

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Dust collector filter question. greenteagod General Woodworking Discussion 13 03-11-2014 04:53 AM
Biodiesel filter for dust? mrkozmic Dust Collection 0 08-23-2012 03:45 AM
Air filter dust collector? ChiknNutz Dust Collection 16 01-26-2012 07:29 PM
How many add an air filter along with a dust collector? mwhals General Woodworking Discussion 18 02-01-2011 02:53 PM
Cleaning Dust Collector filter bag? jacobsk Shop Safety 9 06-04-2010 11:55 AM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome