Cyclone vs Thien Baffle vs the Thing You Can Buy That Replaces a Trash Can Lid - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
 
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post #1 of 18 Old 06-12-2012, 08:53 AM Thread Starter
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Cyclone vs Thien Baffle vs the Thing You Can Buy That Replaces a Trash Can Lid

Maybe a simple question--do these three things all do the same thing? Is one better than the others at doing it?
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post #2 of 18 Old 06-12-2012, 11:25 AM
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The simplest answer is, yes, and no.

Yes, to a certain degree they do the same thing. They separate dust and debris from the air stream before they get to your filters.

No they do not do the same thing in that the commercial trash can lid separators, none of them keep the separator from "scrubbing" or picking material up from the separator vessel and passing it on to the filter...

Think of it is good = trash can lid separator, better = Thien Separator, best = true full scale cyclone.

The difference between a Thien separator on a 2HP DC, and a 2HP cyclone, all else being equal is however somewhat minimal, however the difference between a trash can lid separator like a Rockler Vortex, and a Thien separator both rigged to a 2HP single stage DC is quite large.

Where you run into the big difference is with the 3+ HP cyclones. Yes Thien separators will work with 3 HP dual bagger DCs, but a full on cyclone works as well if not better, and depending on the make and model, most likely has a cost as well as space advantage.

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post #3 of 18 Old 06-12-2012, 03:46 PM
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DB hardly needs my endorsement, but he said it very well.

"I long for the days when coke was a cola and a joint was a bad place to be" (Merle Haggard)
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post #4 of 18 Old 06-12-2012, 06:23 PM
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I have a HF 2hp(really?) DC and the trashcan separator. It does separate out the large chunks. At least those large enough to harm the impeller. A good seal around the top of the can is most beneficial, though.
Mine is vented to the outside and that makes a whale of a difference in suck, noise reduction and space required.

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post #5 of 18 Old 06-12-2012, 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Fred Hargis View Post
DB hardly needs my endorsement, but he said it very well.
Best explanation I have seen.

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post #6 of 18 Old 06-12-2012, 10:25 PM
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I'll add one small tid-bit. The cyclone does a much better job of keeping things out of the filters than either of the other two. I use shop vacs and an Onieda cyclone and I get almost nothing in the vacs. Everything stays in the 30 gal. trash can.

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post #7 of 18 Old 06-12-2012, 10:40 PM
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I agree with Johnnie on this. I have a small shopvac powered system. When I started out I needed a new filter bag on average about once a week. I added a bucket top seperator from Peachtree and cut down to a bag about every three weeks. At about $7 a bag, I decided to try the Oneida Dust Deputy... 10 months and I haven't changed the bag yet

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post #8 of 18 Old 06-12-2012, 11:35 PM
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To get more complicated, all cyclones are not created equal. Some filter more efficiently than others. The diameter, length of the cone and relationship between the two, design of the inlet to channel air to the outside wall to aid in creating the vortex, and the velocity of the air entering the inlet all contribute to separation efficiency. The limiting factor for hobby cyclones is the manufacturer's need or desire to have the unit fit under an 8' ceiling which compromises the design to some extent. The better the cyclone the less you depend on the filters and the longer they actually filter without robbing the system of cfm which in turn causes your lungs to become the filters. Dave
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post #9 of 18 Old 06-13-2012, 12:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbhost View Post
The simplest answer is, yes, and no.

Yes, to a certain degree they do the same thing. They separate dust and debris from the air stream before they get to your filters.

No they do not do the same thing in that the commercial trash can lid separators, none of them keep the separator from "scrubbing" or picking material up from the separator vessel and passing it on to the filter...

Think of it is good = trash can lid separator, better = Thien Separator, best = true full scale cyclone.

The difference between a Thien separator on a 2HP DC, and a 2HP cyclone, all else being equal is however somewhat minimal, however the difference between a trash can lid separator like a Rockler Vortex, and a Thien separator both rigged to a 2HP single stage DC is quite large.

Where you run into the big difference is with the 3+ HP cyclones. Yes Thien separators will work with 3 HP dual bagger DCs, but a full on cyclone works as well if not better, and depending on the make and model, most likely has a cost as well as space advantage.
Nice explanation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnie52 View Post
I'll add one small tid-bit. The cyclone does a much better job of keeping things out of the filters than either of the other two. I use shop vacs and an Onieda cyclone and I get almost nothing in the vacs. Everything stays in the 30 gal. trash can.
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Originally Posted by jschaben View Post
I agree with Johnnie on this. I have a small shopvac powered system. When I started out I needed a new filter bag on average about once a week. I added a bucket top seperator from Peachtree and cut down to a bag about every three weeks. At about $7 a bag, I decided to try the Oneida Dust Deputy... 10 months and I haven't changed the bag yet
Johnnie and jschabenI will have to disagree. The problem is neither of you compared the Thien Baffle to a cyclone. Kenbo built a Thien separator for his shop vac and he gets nothing in the shop vac. I would say they are about equal to the dust deputy with very little difference.

Now between the lid separator and either the cyclone or a Thien baffle there is a big difference.
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post #10 of 18 Old 06-13-2012, 01:04 AM
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Thanks to all!
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post #11 of 18 Old 06-13-2012, 07:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beckerkumm View Post
To get more complicated, all cyclones are not created equal. Some filter more efficiently than others. The diameter, length of the cone and relationship between the two, design of the inlet to channel air to the outside wall to aid in creating the vortex, and the velocity of the air entering the inlet all contribute to separation efficiency. The limiting factor for hobby cyclones is the manufacturer's need or desire to have the unit fit under an 8' ceiling which compromises the design to some extent. The better the cyclone the less you depend on the filters and the longer they actually filter without robbing the system of cfm which in turn causes your lungs to become the filters. Dave
Totally agree...would only add that the cost is another limiting factor in building a properly designed one..

"I long for the days when coke was a cola and a joint was a bad place to be" (Merle Haggard)
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post #12 of 18 Old 06-13-2012, 08:34 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks. Based on the info here and in another question I asked, I plan to upgrade my 2HP (at least that's what it says on the label) dc to use a 6" pvc main that goes through a Thien baffle. That will take some modification to the blower housing because it has a 4" y there now. It looks like I could take that off and attach a 6" flange. I'll choke down to 4" just before the blast gate for each of 6 or 8 openings. Can't wait to get started on the new shop after the move!
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post #13 of 18 Old 06-13-2012, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Santa's Workshop View Post
Thanks. Based on the info here and in another question I asked, I plan to upgrade my 2HP (at least that's what it says on the label) dc to use a 6" pvc main that goes through a Thien baffle. That will take some modification to the blower housing because it has a 4" y there now. It looks like I could take that off and attach a 6" flange. I'll choke down to 4" just before the blast gate for each of 6 or 8 openings. Can't wait to get started on the new shop after the move!
Those HF 2hp DC's have a 5" port under the Y most others have a 6". I believe 6" duct to a 5" port and has no problems.


Warning 6" ports take up allot of room.

I noticed most cyclones if not all have a slightly larger port to the blower then the port from the tools. My Thien baffle separator has 6" in and out and works fine.


Good luck and post pictures when you let us know how it works.
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post #14 of 18 Old 06-13-2012, 04:33 PM
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Nice explanation.
Johnnie and jschabenI will have to disagree. The problem is neither of you compared the Thien Baffle to a cyclone. Kenbo built a Thien separator for his shop vac and he gets nothing in the shop vac. I would say they are about equal to the dust deputy with very little difference.
Now between the lid separator and either the cyclone or a Thien baffle there is a big difference.
Hi Richard - I guess I don't see where we are disagreeing at all.
I've seen Kenbo's thread and it seems to me the major difference between his results and mine is the $50 or so I spent on the thing. After 10 months of use I only had about two cups of stuff in the 22 gallon vac bag. Matter of fact, about a month ago I picked up a 12 gallon version of the vaccuum to get a smaller footprint and built a mobile cart for it.
Actually, If I had a jointer or planner, I would put a lid seperator in series with this system to keep from plugging up the dust deputy. Because this has been downsized for the shopvac system I suspect the larger chips may plug the smaller openings.
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post #15 of 18 Old 06-13-2012, 11:26 PM
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when comparing Thein to cyclone don't forget the cyclone operates with high cfm and low pressure and a shop vac the opposite- low cfm high pressure. The two systems are not comparable. When you run a pleated cartridge filter you need some method of separation or the dust gets in the filters in both systems. The higher the cfm the more the cyclone outperforms the others. Dave
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post #16 of 18 Old 06-13-2012, 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted by jschaben View Post
Hi Richard - I guess I don't see where we are disagreeing at all.
I've seen Kenbo's thread and it seems to me the major difference between his results and mine is the $50 or so I spent on the thing. After 10 months of use I only had about two cups of stuff in the 22 gallon vac bag. Matter of fact, about a month ago I picked up a 12 gallon version of the vaccuum to get a smaller footprint and built a mobile cart for it.
Actually, If I had a jointer or planner, I would put a lid seperator in series with this system to keep from plugging up the dust deputy. Because this has been downsized for the shopvac system I suspect the larger chips may plug the smaller openings.
You said you agreed with Johnnie who said.

"I'll add one small tid-bit. The cyclone does a much better job of keeping things out of the filters than either of the other two. "

I disagree with it works a lot better then a Thien baffle which means I disagree with johnnie who you said you agreed with. So I must disagree with you also.

Hopefully that cleared up any confusion.
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post #17 of 18 Old 06-14-2012, 12:11 AM
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I have a Jet DC. (1100 CFM I think and 1 micron bags from Penn State Industries.) I am a one man shop so I move the DC hose from machine to machine. Prior to the DC is a trash can separator. (Woodcraft version)

I do not see large chips in the bottom DC bag. The trash can is emptied every few weeks. The flour bag on the DC is emptied every 5 or 6 months. I rarely let the flour bag collect more than 18" of flour.

Before buying the lid replacement be sure that you can purchase a galvanized can. With the newer automated trash collection trucks and the specialized plastic cans, the galvanized variety are going the way of the dinosaurs.

Use the right tool for the job.

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post #18 of 18 Old 06-14-2012, 09:55 AM
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You said you agreed with Johnnie who said.

"I'll add one small tid-bit. The cyclone does a much better job of keeping things out of the filters than either of the other two. "

I disagree with it works a lot better then a Thien baffle which means I disagree with johnnie who you said you agreed with. So I must disagree with you also.

Hopefully that cleared up any confusion.

John

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