Canister filter for HF 2HP Dust Collector - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
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post #1 of 34 Old 01-15-2018, 06:40 PM Thread Starter
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Canister filter for HF 2HP Dust Collector

I'm looking to get a canister filter for my HF dust collector. I've searched here and read a lot of threads about using the Wynn 35A and 35BA canisters. But those same threads say that the Wynn filters are a PITA to clean.

Has anyone used a Grizzly T23129 canister on a HF DC. I like the Grizzly because it has flapper vanes to knock the dust off the filter pleats. I cannot find a diameter dimension for the Grizzly canister, so can't even guess if it would fit.

Thanks

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post #2 of 34 Old 01-15-2018, 09:35 PM Thread Starter
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OK, I answered my own question, it won't fit. I finally found the dimension on the Grizzly filter, it's 14-1/2" the HF needs a 17" dia. I ordered the Wynn filter. I'll share my experience installing it after it gets here.

Thanks
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post #3 of 34 Old 01-21-2018, 06:46 PM
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OK, I answered my own question, it won't fit. I finally found the dimension on the Grizzly filter, it's 14-1/2" the HF needs a 17" dia. I ordered the Wynn filter. I'll share my experience installing it after it gets here.

Thanks
Please do - I'm going through this painful process as well :(

Those canisters are so darn expensive :(
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post #4 of 34 Old 01-21-2018, 07:13 PM
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Even if you could find one that would fit I wouldn't do it. There is so much volume of air going through that dust collector a canister filter would plug up in minutes. Even the cloth bag needs a little cleaning from time to time. I usually smack the bag with a stick when the unit is powering down.
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post #5 of 34 Old 01-22-2018, 09:37 AM
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Steve, some of us have shops inside the house, so better filtering is important for us. It's true that they flow so much air they can clog quicker. That's why soon many people add a pre-separator of some type.

I've added the Wynn and the Thein baffle. For my purposes, it's a huge improvement over the felt bag.

Last edited by sanchez; 01-22-2018 at 09:39 AM.
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post #6 of 34 Old 01-22-2018, 10:25 AM
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Interesting. I need to research the threads on DC systems, particularly the HF one. Budget doesn't allow anything more expensive. Next, all I need to do is find a place to put it. Maybe I can arrange some things in the basement and run piping into the shop.

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post #7 of 34 Old 01-22-2018, 11:06 AM
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A few months ago Wood magazine did tests on DC's the ones that had the filters (I think it was Jet and Powermatic) did a worse job of filtering the air than the bags did, at least they let out bigger particles then the bags
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post #8 of 34 Old 01-31-2018, 02:44 AM
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A few months ago Wood magazine did tests on DC's the ones that had the filters (I think it was Jet and Powermatic) did a worse job of filtering the air than the bags did, at least they let out bigger particles then the bags
Catpower:

Would you share the reference (Issue Month, Year & page#) for the Wood Magazine article you are referring to?

Thanks,
Eric

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post #9 of 34 Old 01-31-2018, 04:27 AM
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I searched and found this:
https://www.woodmagazine.com/worksho...lection?page=1

http://forums.finewoodworking.com/fi...lector-reviews

https://www.woodmagazine.com/review/...dust-collector

http://www.finewoodworking.com/2012/...ust-collection


I subscribe to Wood magazine and I'll see if I can find that issue. It would not seem possible that a bag is better than a cannister, except that after it gets a coating of fine dust it may filter better ... I donno? The issue I see is one of air flow. The filtered air has to "escape" and with greater filtering area, a cannister would seem more efficient.
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Last edited by woodnthings; 01-31-2018 at 04:32 AM.
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post #10 of 34 Old 01-31-2018, 08:09 AM
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I've had my HF DC for several years now and it has the Wynn filter too. I 'm just a retired at-home woodworker, like most of us, but do several furniture making project a year, so the DC and filter get plenty of use. My DC is connected via blast gates to my TS, planer, jointer, miter saw and router table..lotsa dust from all.

I generally blow our my cartridge filter a few time a year. Found the easiest method is to take it outside, and using a rubber mallet, I smack the steel support frame a few time to loosen the dust, then I take my electric leaf blower and blast it..inside and out. Stand back and wear a dust mask cause you will be engulfed in a cloud.

But after a few minutes of blowing and tappin'...it's pretty clean. I sent an email to Wynn (several months ago) and asked for tips and trick to clean the filter, but they never replied.

Works for me...good luck. Hope this helps

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post #11 of 34 Old 01-31-2018, 08:45 AM
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I got the 35B filter so that I could remove the top for cleaning without having to remove the filter from the HF unit. It costs $17 more but it's worth the tiny extra cost to not have to remove the filter. Once a week or so, depending on what I have been doing in the shop, I use compressed air and blow from the outside in to clean the filter and it makes a huge difference. Once a month, maybe every 6 weeks, I'll remove the top and use my shop vac to suck the dust off the Wynn filter material after I have blown the majority of it off with compressed air from the outside and the dust settles inside the unit.

My main reason for getting the Wynn 0.5 micron filter is that the standard 5 micron HF bag is simply not enough filtration. The HF bag was leaving a fine layer of dust on everything around the unit and probably all over the shop. With the bag I had to clean the filters on the mini-split unit every week. When I changed to the Wynn filter I still check the mini-split filters weekly but I only need to clean them once a month, maybe once every 6 weeks. That tells me that the Wynn filter is doing its job. And there's no residual dust anywhere in the shop.

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post #12 of 34 Old 01-31-2018, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ORBlackFZ1 View Post
Catpower:

Would you share the reference (Issue Month, Year & page#) for the Wood Magazine article you are referring to?

Thanks,
Eric

I will see if I still have the issue, sometimes Mrs Clean tosses them, it wasn't too long ago in the last couple issues

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post #13 of 34 Old 01-31-2018, 10:43 AM
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I will see if I still have the issue, sometimes Mrs Clean tosses them, it wasn't too long ago in the last couple issues
You have one of those too, huh? I'd rather mine just tossed magazines...she once threw away my very heavy, 15-year old, just broken in, full of memories, Wilson Leather motorcycle jacket. I wasn't riding much in those days so I didn't miss it until it was far too late.
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post #14 of 34 Old 02-01-2018, 02:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woodnthings View Post
I searched and found this:
https://www.woodmagazine.com/worksho...lection?page=1

http://forums.finewoodworking.com/fi...lector-reviews

https://www.woodmagazine.com/review/...dust-collector

http://www.finewoodworking.com/2012/...ust-collection


I subscribe to Wood magazine and I'll see if I can find that issue. It would not seem possible that a bag is better than a cannister, except that after it gets a coating of fine dust it may filter better ... I donno? The issue I see is one of air flow. The filtered air has to "escape" and with greater filtering area, a cannister would seem more efficient.

Thanks Woodnthings, but I would like to see the specific reference for the bag being a better particle filter than the canister. My last few years of dust collection experience and research tell me that reference is not correct. Of course....it could also be the article reader that is not understanding....

If you find the reference, please let me know where it is. I would like to check it myself.

Thanks again,
Eric

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post #15 of 34 Old 02-01-2018, 09:51 AM
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The reference is to Wood magazine July 2017 (sorry no free link to that article). Using a Dylos and sanding MDF panels they tested 8 Units 5 bag and 3 canister DCs. All the bag units outperformed the Jet and Powermatic canister units (which were rated fair). The winner was the Jet 5M bag followed by the General International canister. All the other bag units were in between (most of which were rated excellent). Most of the discussion about this that I have seen, seems contrary to what would be expected.

Where the tests fall short is when they acknowledged all the machines had leaks, they could not see but could feel. So they used silicone, duct tape and foam to seal the leaks. What this tells me, as with any DC system, performance is only as good as the sealing of the system. Shame on the manufacturers for allowing such wide variations occur in build quality to have a good filtration system spew dust through cracks from poor designs. Part of the problem is they are working backwards on the design. Adapting a 20+ year old DC blower design and adding current day fine filtration without better sealing and or connection methods or surfaces.

So in this case they are measuring >0.5 micron (smaller than all filters) and have you believe that a Jet 5 micron bag will outperform every other bag or canister that is 1-2.5 micron. So there are two conclusions I came up with. That a Jet 5 micron bag and the GI 1 micron canister (both performed similarly) can filter 8x more small particulate than the Jet/PM 2 micron canister (both performed the worst). Or the test method was highly unscientific and is not repeatable assembling and testing the same units again.

What the article did show that was interesting, was how a standard single stage DC with 4" flex performs with a clean (seasoned) and dirty filter - or for many, typical use. Only the Shop fox produced over 400CFM with a clean filter, and only the JET/PM canister units produced over 300CFM after sanding 76sq ft of MDF. All others were in the mid 200 range with the GI at 176CFM. So most of the 1.5HP 1100CFM+ DCs with a seasoned, clean filter and a 4" flex hose, typically only pull mid 300 CFM.


For Wood magazine, these are difficult tests (with such poor designs) and can only do so much. I appreciate what tests they do, but have to add some real world understanding into the mix as well.

Hope that helps.

Carl
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post #16 of 34 Old 02-01-2018, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl10 View Post
The reference is to Wood magazine July 2017 (sorry no free link to that article). Using a Dylos and sanding MDF panels they tested 8 Units 5 bag and 3 canister DCs. All the bag units outperformed the Jet and Powermatic canister units (which were rated fair). The winner was the Jet 5M bag followed by the General International canister. All the other bag units were in between (most of which were rated excellent). Most of the discussion about this that I have seen, seems contrary to what would be expected.

Where the tests fall short is when they acknowledged all the machines had leaks, they could not see but could feel. So they used silicone, duct tape and foam to seal the leaks. What this tells me, as with any DC system, performance is only as good as the sealing of the system. Shame on the manufacturers for allowing such wide variations occur in build quality to have a good filtration system spew dust through cracks from poor designs. Part of the problem is they are working backwards on the design. Adapting a 20+ year old DC blower design and adding current day fine filtration without better sealing and or connection methods or surfaces.

So in this case they are measuring >0.5 micron (smaller than all filters) and have you believe that a Jet 5 micron bag will outperform every other bag or canister that is 1-2.5 micron. So there are two conclusions I came up with. That a Jet 5 micron bag and the GI 1 micron canister (both performed similarly) can filter 8x more small particulate than the Jet/PM 2 micron canister (both performed the worst). Or the test method was highly unscientific and is not repeatable assembling and testing the same units again.

What the article did show that was interesting, was how a standard single stage DC with 4" flex performs with a clean (seasoned) and dirty filter - or for many, typical use. Only the Shop fox produced over 400CFM with a clean filter, and only the JET/PM canister units produced over 300CFM after sanding 76sq ft of MDF. All others were in the mid 200 range with the GI at 176CFM. So most of the 1.5HP 1100CFM+ DCs with a seasoned, clean filter and a 4" flex hose, typically only pull mid 300 CFM.


For Wood magazine, these are difficult tests (with such poor designs) and can only do so much. I appreciate what tests they do, but have to add some real world understanding into the mix as well.

Hope that helps.

Carl

Thanks for posting Carl, I have been pretty busy the last few days

And yes there were some questionable methods and data in the article, also some questionable data published by various manufacturers too, Grizzly uses the same impeller for it's 1 1/2,2, and 3 hp DC's but claims different CFMs for all of them, a 12 3/4 inch impeller spinning 3450 PRM doesn't care if a 1 1/2,2, or 3 HP motor is spinning it in the same volute, the CFM will be the same
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post #17 of 34 Old 02-01-2018, 12:03 PM
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I found my issue ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ORBlackFZ1 View Post
Thanks Woodnthings, but I would like to see the specific reference for the bag being a better particle filter than the canister. My last few years of dust collection experience and research tell me that reference is not correct. Of course....it could also be the article reader that is not understanding....

If you find the reference, please let me know where it is. I would like to check it myself.

Thanks again,
Eric
I read the article, skimming over some parts, but I did see that they said " some machines fared better than others, with bag filters outperforming cannisters" . Then they go on to say "dust cake" improves filtration BUT decreases airflow. I downloaded the fan curve chart also and didn't quite understand it. The article published an airflow chart and as I suspected, the highest CFM with a dust laden fiklter was only 336 CFM on the PM and a close second the Jet at 320 CFM. I think you need about 3X the airflow for an efficient system ... if I recall the Pentz site...?

Eric, none of this matters to you at this point because you have a totally new system, but others may find it interesting if not useful.

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
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post #18 of 34 Old 02-01-2018, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Catpower View Post
Thanks for posting Carl, I have been pretty busy the last few days

And yes there were some questionable methods and data in the article, also some questionable data published by various manufacturers too, Grizzly uses the same impeller for it's 1 1/2,2, and 3 hp DC's but claims different CFMs for all of them, a 12 3/4 inch impeller spinning 3450 PRM doesn't care if a 1 1/2,2, or 3 HP motor is spinning it in the same volute, the CFM will be the same
Catpower,

I originally wondered about that myself. Looking at their part numbers and doing my own testing, trying to improve my system I think I understand the differences. The 1.5HP units have a different impeller PN than the 2 &3 HP units. I believe this has to do with the height of the impeller (just a guess). Diameter effects static pressure and increasing the height will increase CFM. My old Oneida has ~3" tall impeller. Today most impellers are 4" tall. The other thing to notice is the input and output of the blowers. The 1.5 and 2 HP units have 6" inputs and the 3HP is 7 inches. Now the blower output on the smaller units is a 5" flex hose, with a 6" input??? How can you pull in 6" of air and exit it out a 5" port without reducing performance. The high end 2HP has a larger metal duct output and a canister filter. The 3HP has a 7" input and an even larger metal output into 2 canisters. So as you open the outlet CFM increases. If you open both the inlet and outlet you get maximum CFM from the same impeller. This is how I see the progressive increase in performance:

1.5HP 12.75 Diameter shallow impeller?
2HP 12.75 Diameter 4" tall impeller 5" flex output
2HP 12.75 Diameter 4" tall impeller larger metal output
3HP 12.75 Diameter 4" tall impeller 7" inlet and very large metal duct output

I noticed this on the Cincinnati Fan site comparing blowers. They had the same impeller in different housings and multiple inlet sizes, all producing different fan curves. I would guess someone could buy the lower end 2HP unit, pull the blower off and the 5" reducer, exhaust into a large canister filter or outside, add a separator and have a significantly well performing machine without overloading the motor at a reasonable price.

Hope this helps.
Carl
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post #19 of 34 Old 02-01-2018, 02:31 PM
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Catpower,

I originally wondered about that myself. Looking at their part numbers and doing my own testing, trying to improve my system I think I understand the differences. The 1.5HP units have a different impeller PN than the 2 &3 HP units. I believe this has to do with the height of the impeller (just a guess). Diameter effects static pressure and increasing the height will increase CFM. My old Oneida has ~3" tall impeller. Today most impellers are 4" tall. The other thing to notice is the input and output of the blowers. The 1.5 and 2 HP units have 6" inputs and the 3HP is 7 inches. Now the blower output on the smaller units is a 5" flex hose, with a 6" input??? How can you pull in 6" of air and exit it out a 5" port without reducing performance. The high end 2HP has a larger metal duct output and a canister filter. The 3HP has a 7" input and an even larger metal output into 2 canisters. So as you open the outlet CFM increases. If you open both the inlet and outlet you get maximum CFM from the same impeller. This is how I see the progressive increase in performance:

1.5HP 12.75 Diameter shallow impeller?
2HP 12.75 Diameter 4" tall impeller 5" flex output
2HP 12.75 Diameter 4" tall impeller larger metal output
3HP 12.75 Diameter 4" tall impeller 7" inlet and very large metal duct output

I noticed this on the Cincinnati Fan site comparing blowers. They had the same impeller in different housings and multiple inlet sizes, all producing different fan curves. I would guess someone could buy the lower end 2HP unit, pull the blower off and the 5" reducer, exhaust into a large canister filter or outside, add a separator and have a significantly well performing machine without overloading the motor at a reasonable price.

Hope this helps.
Carl
Changing the volute will change the CFM's but theirs seems to be kind of all the wall guesses, and changing the profile of the blower blades will also vary the CFM ans static pressure. I have been in the HVAC bidness for about 40 years, and have had to deal with CFM and static every day, seldom will slight changes make dramatic performance changes

If you really want to move some high static high CFM air get an airfoil blower, I worked at the Bureau of Engraving in Ft Worth for a few years right after start up, there was one 150 ton air handler that had screwed up controls that were unassessable and would close all the variable air volume (VAV) boxes connected to it, and as low as we could run the blower on the VFD, it would still slide the air handler across the floor until it hit the end of the flex connector . The total weight of the built up air handler was over 66,000 LBS. Amazing power a few inches of static pressure has
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post #20 of 34 Old 02-01-2018, 05:57 PM
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One other thing, the length of the blade or paddle will change the static the fan will produce the width of it will change the CFM it will move

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