Japanese woodworking - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 23 Old 09-12-2014, 08:41 PM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Stone Mountain, Georgia
Posts: 200
View igster's Photo Album My Photos
We are truly spoiled. I happened on a YouTube video of a japanese woodworker making a beautiful multidrawer chest of sorts...this dude does everything by hand, no power tools. Draw saws, hand-made block planes, jigs...and done entirely sitting down on the floor! Talk about patience... https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PL0...&v=G_sGwQ3bMv8
igster is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 23 Old 09-12-2014, 10:15 PM
where's my table saw?
 
woodnthings's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: SE, Michigan
Posts: 26,544
View woodnthings's Photo Album My Photos
art vs craft

The Japanese take woodworking to a different level, I'd call it art. We woodworkers, are good enough and some are outstanding, but we would still fare a bit behind their best....JMO. They have an apprentice and master system if I recall correctly, just like in their metal work, chisels and blade making:
http://www.kiarts.com/

Having visted Japan and seen their work first hand it's quite impressive. Their whole theory of pulling planes and saws runs contrary to the historical push method of the early English cabinet makers which is what we still use today. However, the pull style saws are becoming more popular recently. The physics of pulling a thin sawblade straightens it out much like pulling on a rope. Pushing on a rope is at best futile and most unrewarding. Pulling on the handplane puts more of the upperbody muscles into the movement and is more controllable. It is easier to lift off at the end of a pull stoke near your body than when it's at arm's length.

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)

Last edited by woodnthings; 09-12-2014 at 10:33 PM.
woodnthings is offline  
post #3 of 23 Old 09-12-2014, 10:29 PM
Wood Snob
 
Al B Thayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 5,963
View Al B Thayer's Photo Album My Photos
I looked at a book on their joinery and was amazed. Maybe I should have bought it. I like the way their tools work and use Japanese saws. Can't justify buying a plane because I don't use them enough. I think you have to spend a lot to get a good one and the cheap ones aren't cheap. Same for the rest of their tools.

Al


Al B Thayer is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 23 Old 09-12-2014, 10:55 PM
Ole Woodworker
 
BigJim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Chattanooga, Tennessee
Posts: 4,443
View BigJim's Photo Album My Photos
Wow, yep, I would say were are for sure spoiled, that is a true craftsman.

http://www.diychatroom.com/
The Other
BigJim

If you do what you've always done, you will get what you've always got.
BigJim is offline  
post #5 of 23 Old 09-13-2014, 12:42 AM
Village Idiot
 
epicfail48's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Springfield MO
Posts: 4,848
View epicfail48's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Al B Thayer View Post
I looked at a book on their joinery and was amazed. Maybe I should have bought it. I like the way their tools work and use Japanese saws. Can't justify buying a plane because I don't use them enough. I think you have to spend a lot to get a good one and the cheap ones aren't cheap. Same for the rest of their tools.

Al
I'll attest to the pull saws being fantastic. One of the cheapy double sided ones is the only hand powered saw in my shop, and I've never wised for another. I do wish I could afford a plane. Ah well, guess I have to use my block plane backwards
epicfail48 is online now  
post #6 of 23 Old 09-13-2014, 08:13 AM
Wood Snob
 
Al B Thayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 5,963
View Al B Thayer's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by epicfail48

I'll attest to the pull saws being fantastic. One of the cheapy double sided ones is the only hand powered saw in my shop, and I've never wised for another. I do wish I could afford a plane. Ah well, guess I have to use my block plane backwards
Buying the plane is only half the cost. Having the correct stones and tools to sharpen them puts it up there too.

Al



Last edited by Al B Thayer; 09-13-2014 at 08:27 AM.
Al B Thayer is offline  
post #7 of 23 Old 09-13-2014, 10:18 AM
Village Idiot
 
epicfail48's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Springfield MO
Posts: 4,848
View epicfail48's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Al B Thayer View Post
Buying the plane is only half the cost. Having the correct stones and tools to sharpen them puts it up there too.

Al
Ill be perfectly honest, I've never understood the whole "you need the best stones too sharpen the best tool right!" argument. Sure, harder metals need nharder materials to cut them, a and sure, a shapton stone, for example, may last longer, but I get a mirror edge on nearly anything with a piece of sandpaper
epicfail48 is online now  
post #8 of 23 Old 09-13-2014, 05:51 PM
Wood Snob
 
Al B Thayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 5,963
View Al B Thayer's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by epicfail48

Ill be perfectly honest, I've never understood the whole "you need the best stones too sharpen the best tool right!" argument. Sure, harder metals need nharder materials to cut them, a and sure, a shapton stone, for example, may last longer, but I get a mirror edge on nearly anything with a piece of sandpaper
Me too but the Japanese tools are on a much higher level. They make Fe$tool look like a piker. Have you ever seen the contest where they try to make the thinnest shaving with a plane? Nothing from the west comes close.

Al


Al B Thayer is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Al B Thayer For This Useful Post:
asevereid (09-13-2014)
post #9 of 23 Old 09-13-2014, 10:45 PM
Village Idiot
 
epicfail48's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Springfield MO
Posts: 4,848
View epicfail48's Photo Album My Photos
I wont disagree that the quality of the tools is head and shoulders above western equipment. Japanese steel is on a whole nother level. Wish i could get my hands on some, maybe some chisels, but then again id still be sharpening them with sandpaper :P
epicfail48 is online now  
post #10 of 23 Old 09-13-2014, 11:42 PM
Wood Snob
 
Al B Thayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 5,963
View Al B Thayer's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by epicfail48
I wont disagree that the quality of the tools is head and shoulders above western equipment. Japanese steel is on a whole nother level. Wish i could get my hands on some, maybe some chisels, but then again id still be sharpening them with sandpaper :P
After your sandpaper. Try this.
http://www.google.com/search?q=japan...&client=safari

Al


Al B Thayer is offline  
post #11 of 23 Old 09-14-2014, 12:35 AM
Senior Member
 
OnealWoodworking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 1,128
View OnealWoodworking's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by epicfail48 View Post
I wont disagree that the quality of the tools is head and shoulders above western equipment. Japanese steel is on a whole nother level. Wish i could get my hands on some, maybe some chisels, but then again id still be sharpening them with sandpaper :P
THIS is why I never loan out cutting tools...
OnealWoodworking is offline  
post #12 of 23 Old 09-14-2014, 12:35 AM
Village Idiot
 
epicfail48's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Springfield MO
Posts: 4,848
View epicfail48's Photo Album My Photos
With the right steel i believe i could. Id also need a miracle, robot hands, and heck, while im at it lets throw in a million bucks. That video... just holy cow. Kinda reinforces the point that, no matter how good you are, there will always be an asian guy better than you
epicfail48 is online now  
post #13 of 23 Old 09-14-2014, 01:20 AM
Wood Snob
 
Al B Thayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 5,963
View Al B Thayer's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by epicfail48
With the right steel i believe i could. Id also need a miracle, robot hands, and heck, while im at it lets throw in a million bucks. That video... just holy cow. Kinda reinforces the point that, no matter how good you are, there will always be an asian guy better than you
The worst Asian guy is better than me. If you want to try your hand at making a blade. You can buy Damascus steel on eBay. I'm going too one of these days.

Al


Al B Thayer is offline  
post #14 of 23 Old 09-14-2014, 08:02 AM
Village Idiot
 
epicfail48's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Springfield MO
Posts: 4,848
View epicfail48's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Al B Thayer View Post
The worst Asian guy is better than me. If you want to try your hand at making a blade. You can buy Damascus steel on eBay. I'm going too one of these days.

Al
I have actuallly
epicfail48 is online now  
post #15 of 23 Old 09-14-2014, 08:27 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Florida Panhandle
Posts: 12,089
View GeorgeC's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by igster View Post
We are truly spoiled. I happened on a YouTube video of a japanese woodworker making a beautiful multidrawer chest of sorts...this dude does everything by hand, no power tools. Draw saws, hand-made block planes, jigs...and done entirely sitting down on the floor! Talk about patience... https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PL0...&v=G_sGwQ3bMv8
We are not spoiled in any sense of the word any more than is a person who builds an automobile on a modern assembly line. Should technology stand still and everyone still work the way they did 200 years ago?

There are craftsmen in the US who still use the "by hand" method of building. The tools of the two craftsman are different. But they both turn out exquisite products.

The typical woodworker in the US uses power tools because that is a quicker, easier and often more accurate method of building. Japan also has their woodworkers who build that way.

I certainly agree that the pull saw is much easier to use.

George
GeorgeC is offline  
post #16 of 23 Old 09-14-2014, 09:14 AM
Village Idiot
 
epicfail48's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Springfield MO
Posts: 4,848
View epicfail48's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by OnealWoodworking View Post
THIS is why I never loan out cutting tools...
I resent that. You loan a chisel to me and you'll get it back sharper than you handed it to me, like as not. Like I've already said, fancy gear isn't needed to get a razor edge
epicfail48 is online now  
post #17 of 23 Old 09-14-2014, 10:43 AM
Wood Snob
 
Al B Thayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 5,963
View Al B Thayer's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeC

We are not spoiled in any sense of the word any more than is a person who builds an automobile on a modern assembly line. Should technology stand still and everyone still work the way they did 200 years ago?

There are craftsmen in the US who still use the "by hand" method of building. The tools of the two craftsman are different. But they both turn out exquisite products.

The typical woodworker in the US uses power tools because that is a quicker, easier and often more accurate method of building. Japan also has their woodworkers who build that way.

I certainly agree that the pull saw is much easier to use.

George
Hell has frozen over. We both use pull saws. :)

Al


Al B Thayer is offline  
post #18 of 23 Old 09-16-2014, 07:13 PM
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Utah
Posts: 3
View mwevre's Photo Album My Photos
Edo Cabinetwork/Joinery - from the title of the video.
mwevre is offline  
post #19 of 23 Old 09-16-2014, 09:27 PM
Senior Member
 
OnealWoodworking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 1,128
View OnealWoodworking's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by epicfail48 View Post
I resent that. You loan a chisel to me and you'll get it back sharper than you handed it to me, like as not. Like I've already said, fancy gear isn't needed to get a razor edge
That is the way things 'should' be if you loan a tool out. The person that borrows it should always go out of their way to return it in the same or 'better' condition and be willing to replace it if nessesary with a like model 'if' they happen to break it.

I commend you for your views on that subject and wish more people shared your beliefs with respect to that.

Sandpaper alone is NOT how one gets a good sharp edge on a cutting tool. Please explain how you maintain your cutting angles with just some sandpaper and no 'fancy gear'?

How do you control how much you take off and how would you manage to control a perfectly straight line across a longer edge if needed with 'sandpaper'?

Can you do a hollow grind with that sandpaper yet?
OnealWoodworking is offline  
post #20 of 23 Old 09-17-2014, 12:22 AM
Village Idiot
 
epicfail48's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Springfield MO
Posts: 4,848
View epicfail48's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by OnealWoodworking View Post
That is the way things 'should' be if you loan a tool out. The person that borrows it should always go out of their way to return it in the same or 'better' condition and be willing to replace it if nessesary with a like model 'if' they happen to break it.

I commend you for your views on that subject and wish more people shared your beliefs with respect to that.

Sandpaper alone is NOT how one gets a good sharp edge on a cutting tool. Please explain how you maintain your cutting angles with just some sandpaper and no 'fancy gear'?

How do you control how much you take off and how would you manage to control a perfectly straight line across a longer edge if needed with 'sandpaper'?

Can you do a hollow grind with that sandpaper yet?
The same way people have been doing it for several thousand years, by hand. Sandpaper alone is how I get a proper edge, and it works fine for me and millions of people. Google the scary sharp method, you'd be surprised how well it works.

Why would in want to do a hollow grind? If I wanted no material being the cutting edge, I'd buy a thinner blade

I need cheaper hobby
etsy.com/shop/projectepicfail
epicfail48 is online now  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Japanese design? TooPicky Design & Plans 10 11-22-2013 03:11 PM
Japanese Chisels mn pete General Woodworking Discussion 2 09-10-2013 12:43 AM
Japanese Oak onemarleyfan Woodturning 18 06-25-2013 01:37 AM
Japanese Saw CharlieC Joinery 17 10-17-2012 05:45 PM
Interested in Japanese Woodworking Tools? jaxonquad Hand Tools 0 08-07-2011 11:32 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome