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post #21 of 40 Old 01-25-2019, 07:32 PM
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Tonight I watched several of Mr Chickadee's videos of him and his wife timber framing his work shop, the man is amazing. I got down to where he is building his windows now. The masonry heater/stove he built was absolutely beautiful.
Jim,

I made the 2018 building class....I thoroughly enjoyed it BUT I layed more back and let the newbies have all the fun.... it was a vacation for me and I got to learn, see how others think and do projects, very hands on. Josh is a incredible teacher, he DOES talk more than in his videos !!!! LOL !!!

Brent linking up to your site thumbup1 thumbup1
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post #22 of 40 Old 01-25-2019, 09:11 PM
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Jim,

I made the 2018 building class....I thoroughly enjoyed it BUT I layed more back and let the newbies have all the fun.... it was a vacation for me and I got to learn, see how others think and do projects, very hands on. Josh is a incredible teacher, he DOES talk more than in his videos !!!! LOL !!!

Brent linking up to your site thumbup1 thumbup1
Tim that had to be a special treat taking the class, I am sure you won't forget it anytime soon. He does a pretty good job teaching in the videos without much talk. lol I love to see people who use their heads and man does he ever.

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post #23 of 40 Old 01-25-2019, 09:41 PM Thread Starter
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Jim,

I made the 2018 building class....I thoroughly enjoyed it BUT I layed more back and let the newbies have all the fun.... it was a vacation for me and I got to learn, see how others think and do projects, very hands on. Josh is a incredible teacher, he DOES talk more than in his videos !!!! LOL !!!

Brent linking up to your site thumbup1 thumbup1
Thanks for joining in! This is a great site.

I have had a real job of getting my big crosscut saw going but I think I'm on the homestretch with that. The motor rotor is out and at a machine shop getting some overdue attention. On top of it we've had a whole bunch of minus 25 days here that have kept me out of the big shop but I do have some video content I'm working on right now. Here's the big crosscut I'm working on. Will be a huge asset I hope to making brace production more efficient.

How do you folks manufacture your braces?

B
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post #24 of 40 Old 01-25-2019, 10:22 PM
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That's a interesting saw...I can't say I've ever seen cross cut like that one. Looks a little dangerous BUT I'm hoping it's just not showing the guards!!!

What type and style of bracing are you cutting?? There's many ways to set up simple or complex production....the main question is does it offset the cost to setup/build the equipment compared to how many you'd actually use per day, week, month, year or better to stay basic???

Have a Blessed and Prosperous day in Jesus's Awesome Love, Tim
........www.TSMFarms.com.......... John 3:16-21 ..........
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post #25 of 40 Old 01-25-2019, 11:05 PM Thread Starter
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That's a interesting saw...I can't say I've ever seen cross cut like that one. Looks a little dangerous BUT I'm hoping it's just not showing the guards!!!

What type and style of bracing are you cutting?? There's many ways to set up simple or complex production....the main question is does it offset the cost to setup/build the equipment compared to how many you'd actually use per day, week, month, year or better to stay basic???
Ha ha! Yes, the guards aren't on in that pic and the table that the stock sits on hasn't been built yet. It's essentially a giant radial arm saw. It'll crosscut 33", swing 45degrees one way, 60 degrees the other and the head cants 45 degrees too. Can actually take moulding heads too. Most of my braces so far have all been 3 or 4" thick with tenons offset to one side. To make things tight and reliable, I've jointed the braces on my big jointer, run them through on face and edge through the planer and then skillsawed to reveal the tenon. This saw takes an 18" blade for almost 5" depth of cut, so with a cut-off blade I'll define the limits of the brace and then with a dado cut the half lap to leave the tenon offset to one side.

The machine was dirt cheap because it's 1300lbs, and 600volt three phase which nobody wants. I'm all set up for that so I got it. It'll cut basically anything I can lift up onto the table, so I'm thinking it'll be good for a lot of hammer beam components, king posts struts etc. Since it relies on reference faces (the table surface and the back) components will have to be made true and square otherwise it'll be too time consuming to set up probably. Anyway, we'll see how helpful it is in the big picture!

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post #26 of 40 Old 01-25-2019, 11:42 PM
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That's similar to a old 1900's Dewalt radial arm I've got...on it the arm itself slides BUT has all those features you mentioned....I think it may be a R-1 or 2???

That'll be sweet once set back up. The old heavy equipment just operates SO smooth!!!

I can't wait to see it in action.

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post #27 of 40 Old 01-30-2019, 10:16 AM Thread Starter
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Third video is up!


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post #28 of 40 Old 02-10-2019, 09:25 PM Thread Starter
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Fourth video! Hand tools of the trade:

Anyone have thoughts on ink lines? I'd like to try one I think,

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post #29 of 40 Old 02-10-2019, 09:54 PM
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墨壷 "sumitsbo" and the process of 墨打ち Sumi-uchi...

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...Anyone have thoughts on ink lines? I'd like to try one I think...
Hey Brent,

Of all the "layout methods" used in timber framing (aka scribe, line, edge, mill) I personally find "line rule" being the most useful and acient with "scribe rule" seemingly only being slightly older comparatively...

墨壷 "sumitsbo" and the process of 墨打ち Sumi-uchi...(along with many of the Chinese, Korean and related modalities) are all I have ever used in my time professionally as a Timberwright, other than when apprenticing under the Old Order Amish Barnwrights that I started with when I was 13 actively learning the craft...Yet, even then, they had what was called a "grease line" and that is what opened up my interest in the esoteric histories of our craft and just how much...isn't!!!...written down in books but still held within oral traditions...

Layout being so vital to use, I am still astounded how little is written down (in English) about the many practices and its history. One of the reasons I started teaching and doing my own writing. As you know, virtually all the tome offered for the aspiring Timberwrights to learn from is primarily focused on the newer layout version of "edge rule" (less than 250 years old) for the layout and production of frames...

I can't recommend this method more, and the supporting systems that go with it...

Good Luck,

j
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post #30 of 40 Old 02-11-2019, 12:14 PM Thread Starter
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Hey Brent,

Of all the "layout methods" used in timber framing (aka scribe, line, edge, mill) I personally find "line rule" being the most useful and acient with "scribe rule" seemingly only being slightly older comparatively...

墨壷 "sumitsbo" and the process of 墨打ち Sumi-uchi...(along with many of the Chinese, Korean and related modalities) are all I have ever used in my time professionally as a Timberwright, other than when apprenticing under the Old Order Amish Barnwrights that I started with when I was 13 actively learning the craft...Yet, even then, they had what was called a "grease line" and that is what opened up my interest in the esoteric histories of our craft and just how much...isn't!!!...written down in books but still held within oral traditions...

Layout being so vital to use, I am still astounded how little is written down (in English) about the many practices and its history. One of the reasons I started teaching and doing my own writing. As you know, virtually all the tome offered for the aspiring Timberwrights to learn from is primarily focused on the newer layout version of "edge rule" (less than 250 years old) for the layout and production of frames...

I can't recommend this method more, and the supporting systems that go with it...

Good Luck,

j
Hi Jay, I've come to understand that my approach to layout is in fact a hybrid (perhaps mutated version??) of a couple of different things. I'm nervous about, but also excited about the video on layout because I think it will generate a lot of discussion and contemplation. I've been doing things "my way" for a few years now and I hope I'm not too entrenched to try some other things because I always like the idea of being more efficient. Though Steve does scribe rule in his own work, his course was essentially "mill rule" and accordingly we didn't really learn approaches to dealing with imperfect timbers. When it came time to start working on larger scale projects with imperfect timbers, I had to sit down and come up with my own approach and though it's based on Whit Holder's chapter in the guild book, it's really been personalized. I've also been surprised at how little material there is available out there on the different approaches. Lots of general approaches and descriptions, but nothing terrible meticulous.

Thanks for the links!
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post #31 of 40 Old 02-11-2019, 09:45 PM
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Modern Layout In Timber Framing...

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...Hi Jay, I've come to understand that my approach to layout is in fact a hybrid (perhaps mutated version??) of a couple of different things.
No issue with that from my perpective...if it works for you and your joinery is tight (and stays tight) then all is good in the universe...

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...I'm nervous about, but also excited about the video on layout because I think it will generate a lot of discussion and contemplation. I've been doing things "my way" for a few years now and I hope I'm not too entrenched to try some other things because I always like the idea of being more efficient.
I really look forward to seeing that video...and I mean that in a really good way and with much excitement as well...

I love teaching layout to DIYers and the "uninitiated" a great deal, but what is also probably more rewarding is finding another person like you and seeing what they have come up with themselves...

I have a loose criteria of which I assess their (your) methods of layout. Its not a "right-wrong" perspective but more about logistical and tangible challenges of how a system works...

Just this post thread you started and this very post of mine is rather exciting because I don't get to "front load" someone with your level of skill that is also exploring "new methods" while they still practice as a working facilitator of frames...!!!...

So, with that stated, here is the criteria below you can think about as if you had to apply your layout system modality to it?

Here is the Scenario (note: this scenario is real and pulled from several project profiles over the decades):

There is a client, and they want an Asian style frame, similar to a Japanese Minka farm house - 民家 (actually one of my specialties.)

It will have lots of "live edge" timber work within the frame, and some of the post in the house will also be "full rounds." The "live edge" is in the 太鼓落 (Taiko-otoshi) styles which can be hewn, milled, planned or otherwised trimmed to be flat on two opposite sides and live edge on the others. This will be dominate in the frame, while others posts and beams may be in the full log form with all twist and turns and facets intact. Some may even tapper or be at angles, such as found in 与次郎組 (Yojirō-gumi) framing systems (see photo below)

Now...beside haveing to design, layout and build this structure, the Timberwright in charge (you!) must include two other Timberwrights in the proejct to meet the time deadline for completion. You will do the roof structures and they will handle the to wings of the house. All participants will source their timbers within their individual regions, but the frame will be shipped and assemble in another province...without test fitting!!!

That's the challenge for your current system...



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... Though Steve does scribe rule in his own work, his course was essentially "mill rule" and accordingly we didn't really learn approaches to dealing with imperfect timbers...
I've know Steve since the mid 80's and his approach is also his own...and...as you stated it is more about "mill rule" (for the most part) than other methods. Partly because of the need to make it work for his style of teaching and the class format most common to his practice...but he can get through most any system including the esoteric French lofting methods as well...!!!

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...When it came time to start working on larger scale projects with imperfect timbers, I had to sit down and come up with my own approach and though it's based on Whit Holder's chapter in the guild book, it's really been personalized.
Wow...Whit Holder...I haven't seen Whit in over 10 years...!!!...which just boggles my mind. Both Whit and Gable (his brother) had not been timber framing for very long when I met them. Its so strange to think that these young Timberwrights have taken to the craft so well as to actually write about it now...

What is the exact title of the TFG book you referenced here...???...I don't think I am familiar with it and should add it to my "library list" for students and clients...

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...I've also been surprised at how little material there is available out there on the different approaches. Lots of general approaches and descriptions, but nothing terrible meticulous...Thanks for the links!
You are most welcome to the links...and it speaks to the issue of "little material" too!!!

In reality there is "gobs and reams" of material on layout...So much that some volumes cover several books the size of a large encyclopedia...The real issue is its all in other languages (e.g. Japanese, Korean, Chinese, etc) or its has been published in the last 4 centuries and is out of print...so...unless you are a real......and like going deep into the stacks of old libraries (I've been in some Ivy leagues that had dust on the books I pulled out...LMAO) most Timberwrights today aren't going to find the really good stuff or have a means of figuring it all out...I'm still learn myself some 40 plus years later...
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post #32 of 40 Old 02-13-2019, 11:14 AM Thread Starter
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Hi Jay, thanks for all the thoughts.

Unfortunately, I'm suffering from a bought of sciatica and sitting to type is agony, so I can't do all your thoughts justice but suffice to say my system of layout would not work very well with round timbers, but that's primarily due to decisions on where to place lines, verses wholesale non-suitability from a fundamental concepts perspective. In fact what I hope to bring out in my discussion is a separation of some of the principles common to many systems as I understand them, from how I've personally decided to employ those principles to affect layout....if that makes sense.

The book I refer to is only one in my library, is called "Timber Framing Fundamentals" and seems to be published by the guild. My version is copyright 2011, ISBN 978-0-9706643-7-2, hope that helps.


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post #33 of 40 Old 02-13-2019, 10:23 PM
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...Unfortunately, I'm suffering from a bought of sciatica and sitting to type is agony, so I can't do all your thoughts justice...
I'm terribly sorry to read that about your back......I know exactly what that is like!!!

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...suffice to say my system of layout would not work very well with round timbers...
That doesn't surprise me and is the norm for most Timberwrights here in North America...

It is the primary issue and limitations to the systems as they now exist and so many use. It speaks to it's overall inefficiencies in application of layout within our craft in North America...

The layout systems (and there modifications/adaptations)...as they are currently employed for the most part...have a very narrow scope of application and use within the craft comparatively (I mean that both from a global and historic perspective) to the what is possible, and frankly, much easier to use and do...once learned...

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...that's primarily due to decisions on where to place lines, verses wholesale non-suitability from a fundamental concepts perspective...
The lines go in the same places...round or square timber matters not...

Round, of course, is a bit more challenging (kind of...???) geometrically and logistically, but since you don't have to mill the timber, it can also be faster framing if in the more simplistic "folk styles," of design are employed...

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...In fact what I hope to bring out in my discussion is a separation of some of the principles common to many systems as I understand them, from how I've personally decided to employ those principles to affect layout....if that makes sense...
I'm sure it will make complete sense when you present it in the video...and I look forward to it!!!

I will only offer comparative feedback if requested, as I suspect now that it is probably narrow in scope and more based on the "edge/mill rule systems?" I do look forward to seeing your modifications to it!!!

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...The book I refer to is only one in my library, is called "Timber Framing Fundamentals" and seems to be published by the guild. My version is copyright 2011, ISBN 978-0-9706643-7-2, hope that helps.
I thought that was the book...!!!

I have only read it and didn't put it in my library...

It's good "basic book" but outside the scope of my work, and frankly...it is perpetuating the same limitations in design scope and advancement that the craft here in North America tends to suffer from...

If all someone wants is the generic "barn frame" styles that are so popular here...Its and excellent book!!!...Beyond that, not so much, if speaking for the full scope of the craft of timber framing...

Chapter 5's section (pg 139) on "Snap Line square rule," is pulled from and based on Jack Soban's attempt at..."reinventing"... "square rule" with very parochial elements pulled from "Line Rule" modalities as well...or...his interpretations of it...

It still reflects (and teaches) the very limiting systems and one could challenge a "dumbing down" of the craft. I mean that purely as an "academic observation" because Jack's work has done more for promoting the craft and bringing on the inexperience probably more than any other book published at that time. For that it is excellent, and covers the basics for a "non-builder" to actually have a timber frame of there own!!!

However, at the professional level of the craft (where I see you or myself) I would recommend reading the source materials that Jack himself used to adapt his "own system" from. The primary, and a true..."go to"...book that all Timberwrights should read if designing frames from the "North American" vernacualr perpective...would be:

"Civil Architecture: A Complete Theoretical and Practical System of Building," 4th Edition, By: Edward Shaw, 1836.

The link above takes you directly to the text that 90% of what has been written (in Amecia/Cannada) on contemporary timber frame design and building with regards to layout in the last 60 years. It is almost all adapted from Shaw's original work in documenting these systems, as they exist here in the North American common practices of the craft...Of course their are the "oral traditions" that some of us got exposed to and some other esoteric and rare, French, German, English and even Native American systems as well, but little is known or well published on those specifics...None for the novice or beginner...

There are others but this is the starting point. James Mitchell's work ("The Craft of Modular Post & Beam: Building log and timber homes affordably") is probably the best at actually taking the craft to the next level in layout for the novice and or DIYer trying to understand "line rule." It is based on the much older and practical "line rule" systems of layout, but James has broken it down to much more basic approaches. Thus, it get the uninitiated into the basics of the system very well...

Don't worry about posting a response to this with your back out...I more than understand and only share it for you (and other readers) to have the contained information and links...

Feel free however to ask questions if you do have any?

Feel better!!!

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post #34 of 40 Old 06-26-2019, 03:44 PM Thread Starter
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Well folks, I'm still alive and I apologize for the long delay, but I had quite the adventure this winter. I spent about 4 months on my back with two herniated discs, only standing up long enough to visit the doctor and neurologist. It has happened before, but never to this degree and while moving the timbers may well have aggravated it, it wasn't what did it. Since I managed to get up and around again and got tentative approval from the Dr.'s to get back to some work I have been busier than a one-legged grape stomper just catching up. But I have returned to work and gathered some footage of the next steps.

The four main tie beams are now planed and ready for layout!

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post #35 of 40 Old 06-26-2019, 10:24 PM
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Great to see you back up and about, sorry for the back pain, I can sure relate to that right now.

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post #36 of 40 Old 06-27-2019, 10:40 AM
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I spent about 4 months on my back with two herniated discs,

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Are you doing your PT and your stretches? You have to do your PT and your stretches.

I'm an L4-L5, L5-S1.
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post #37 of 40 Old 06-27-2019, 10:45 AM Thread Starter
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Great to see you back up and about, sorry for the back pain, I can sure relate to that right now.
Thanks Jim, I keep hearing this crazy rumour that we're not getting any younger. I'm not much for rumours, but I think there might be something to this one.....

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post #38 of 40 Old 06-27-2019, 11:01 AM Thread Starter
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Are you doing your PT and your stretches? You have to do your PT and your stretches.

I'm an L4-L5, L5-S1.
I'm actually on the hunt for a core strengthening routine that won't aggravate anything. Everyone says it's key to long-term survival!

I'm S1-S2 and S2-S3.

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post #39 of 40 Old 06-27-2019, 11:41 AM
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Are you doing your PT and your stretches? You have to do your PT and your stretches.

I'm an L4-L5, L5-S1.
This is where I am also, I start therapy today, hope it does some good, sleeping in a chair for the last three months is the pits.

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post #40 of 40 Old 07-16-2019, 09:42 AM Thread Starter
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Part 6

The tie beams are planed down, my new-to-me blower gets a test run and I walk through each beam and assess suitability. The discussion of timber scrutiny with respect to structural issues is necessarily superficial (else the video be 4 hours long!), but here it is. Hope sound is getting better. I'm the one playing guitar in a few places.


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