Tablesaw Inserts - Page 2 - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
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post #21 of 30 Old 05-15-2018, 11:19 AM
where's my table saw?
 
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I have a bunch of throat plates!

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Originally Posted by woodnthings View Post
I checked my stash of zero clearance plates and found part no. 953 from:
https://www.ptreeusa.com/tablesaw_zero_clearance.html
The 954 is the longer version for older saws, pre 1988 at 14 3/8". Don't expect the CS at ptree to know which one fits your saw, there's just too many of them. Even the 12" saw plates are not all the same! I have two 10" tables bolted into the Sawzilla and they aren't the same either.

Best short term solution:
http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f27/m...-insert-10147/

I had also made my own from the OEM metal plate by adding a narrow rounded end insert into the metal plate... about 1/2" X 12" or so X 3/16" thick. Then I had hot glued a 1/2" thick X 1 1/2" backer to that. No need to get a new zero clearance plate.

Turns out I have to label them to keep them all sorted out. Some 12" plates fit the 10" saws because all they did was put a 220 V motor under the same table @Mad:
I did acquire an older 12" saw that has the same casting bosses as the ones in your PM. I thought I would share the photos I took so all could see them on the forum.

The ZCI's I got from www.ptreeusa came in two sizes and thickness. The older Craftsman ones are thinner around the perimeter, about 3/16". The other version is for a 10" Hybrid Craftsman and it is almost 1/2" Thick. The length and width dimensions are in the photo and are smaller than the older Craftsman ones. Your bad experience with the phenolic dust may have you using the UHM ones which are totally clean to rout on.
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The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)

Last edited by woodnthings; 05-15-2018 at 11:22 AM.
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post #22 of 30 Old 05-15-2018, 12:26 PM
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Is the last photo of Peach Tree inserts still in their packaging exactly what you would use in the Sawzilla "extra table" in the 3rd and 4th photo that matches mine?


If yes, then can you please type out the part number? Is it 953? Or 4131?


I can't make anything out on the label in the 5th photo. It is too fuzzy... like a peach! Guess that's why they call it Peach tree?
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post #23 of 30 Old 05-15-2018, 04:31 PM
where's my table saw?
 
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That number won't matter

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Originally Posted by Mad View Post
Is the last photo of Peach Tree inserts still in their packaging exactly what you would use in the Sawzilla "extra table" in the 3rd and 4th photo that matches mine?


If yes, then can you please type out the part number? Is it 953? Or 4131?


I can't make anything out on the label in the 5th photo. It is too fuzzy... like a peach! Guess that's why they call it Peach tree?

It won't work anyway, too short. You will have to look through all these based on length and width, then thickness.
https://www.ptreeusa.com/tablesaw_zero_clearance.html
I wrote those dimensions on the table in the photo. You need one that need not necessarily be that thick IF it can be supported by the inner most level in the casting near the top surface. Below that don't matter... No need to accommodate for all that goofyness... as long as the set screws will rest on something flat and solid.
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The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
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post #24 of 30 Old 05-15-2018, 08:23 PM
where's my table saw?
 
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So, here's what I found ....

I had some 953 inserts from Fulton/peachtree and tried them in the extra saw table with the goofy casting bosses. It will fit exactly length and width and depth, but not all the way down on the goofy bosses.. Who Cares? Mine are a few years old and have a very slight convex surface up. I could see if I can get the warp out for my own peace of mind. If you wanted a "no rout" fit this is what I recommend you get.




You will have to secure them down when raising the blade under power of course . The fence or weights on the left side about 1 1/2" from the left edge should work. Use a heavy wooden plank, nothing metal near the blade. One of the red painted inserts also fit that goofy table, but I'm keepin' that one. The other painted red ones will work on Sawzilla, if needed. Hope this helps you out.
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The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)

Last edited by woodnthings; 05-15-2018 at 08:53 PM.
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post #25 of 30 Old 05-16-2018, 12:10 AM
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I make zero clearance insert out of hardwood. Use the existing insert as a template, and mill it out with flush trimming router bit. It works just fine.

-TL

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post #26 of 30 Old 05-16-2018, 12:55 AM
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Bill, how did you do the relief cut that fits into the pocket of this dado throat plate?


Can you show the back side of it (to reveal how much wood meat is beneath the metal), and talk about how you made the 1/8" - 3/16" thick rectangle that protrudes through the original metal dado opening and is flush with the top of the metal plate?


And thanks for your ideas in PM too!
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post #27 of 30 Old 05-16-2018, 01:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tangolima View Post
I make zero clearance insert out of hardwood. Use the existing insert as a template, and mill it out with flush trimming router bit. It works just fine.



I had a very hard time using a router to mill the underside of a phenolic throat plate blank. It wasn't the perimeter radius, length, or width that needed milling in my case. It was the undulations below the plate's seating deck, since the blank that I obtained was deep enough to collide with the below deck interferences in the casting that Bill illustrates in his photos above that say "This is yours!", where "yours" refers to the challenges I had in replicating a 3D pattern without the ability to ride a roller bearing on any edge for guidance.

Last edited by Mad; 05-16-2018 at 01:13 AM.
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post #28 of 30 Old 05-16-2018, 01:37 AM
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I started to edit the previous post, but too much time passed, so now am adding fresh addendum to post the photos I sent to Bill.


I sent them to Bill because I knew he had a saw like mine, and wanted the benefit of how he solved the issue. Turns out, he solved it by switching tables. But he had lots of great suggestions, as he always does for any and everyone on this forum, about how to make a template.


First, I already have a negative template... or an inverse template... which is the table itself. This is the shape I needed to conform locally sourced ZCI blanks to. (Local source = Rockler store nearby)










I don't know how to use a trim router bit to transfer the interior pattern that is BELOW the perimeter seat for the throat plate. While I realize that the perimeter seat is adequate to support a ZCI, since it is all that supports the original flat metal plate, I still had to clearance the Rockler ZCI blank to fit within the protrusions below the perimeter seat due to the thickness of the Rockler blank.


Ideally, I wanted an interference fit within the protrusions below deck, since the phenolic plastic ZCI weighs a lot less than the steel plate that it replaces, and the lighter the throat plate, the more likely the throat plate can be unseated. Since the phenolic ZCI was much thicker, I wanted to take advantage of that thickness and shape the bottom side so that it would lock in edge to edge with the below deck formation, which would contribute to the throat plate staying put, since there are no retention screws or clips that would otherwise hold it in place, unlike the original metal plate that is retained by two spring clips, as well as it's heavier metal mass.


But alas, my inexperience with milling and replicating 3d patterns such as this has been a hurdle that I have not yet been able to overcome, so I welcome any advice about how to replicate that shape.


One idea Bill mentioned was to make a positive template out of bondo, by first masking off the surrounding area, and then applying a release agent to all the undulations that I want to replicate, and a temporary bottom to hold whatever epoxy I make the positive pattern out of in place until it cures. Then, hopefully the release agent (silicone, saran wrap, something) will permit a clean removal of the "false" positive when cured, which I would then do what with?


Place upside down on a work surface, clamp in place... then? I just don't know how I would transfer that pattern to a piece of hardwood or another piece of phenolic. It seems like sandwiching them together for the trim router to do it's job with the bearing riding on the pattern and the cutter riding on the material to be cut wouldn't work, because the edge is layered and complex, and the rise of each rabbit layer is as important as the run. So I can't get my mind around how to make it happen... but again, I welcome any and all instruction.


Left to my own devices, the only way I could come up with was free handing with an end cutter (for making dados) on my only router, which has a base way too big for this kind of work. The base didn't have much to ride on when working the edges at only a limited depth, and half the base of the router was unsupported, leading to my fighting to keep the larger router level, while still free handing the cut. The results were not pretty.








I would have liked to have done better. Much better. The insert now fits OK, without riding high on the below deck protrusions before making full contact with the perimeter seat, but I did not achieve the below deck interference fit with those protrusions that I originally wanted. My router was too big (1613EVS) for my inexperienced hands to control entirely freehand with no pilot bearing (because there was no edge that the pilot bearing could act on, as the cuts were only partial depth.


As it sits now:







Since I need to make two more of these (one to clear all bevels up to 45 degrees, and another for dado work), it would be a relief if I could find an easier solution or make better renditions the second and third time around.

Last edited by Mad; 05-16-2018 at 01:39 AM.
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post #29 of 30 Old 05-16-2018, 04:31 AM
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What I am suggesting is ....

Quote:
Originally Posted by woodnthings View Post
You need one that need not necessarily be that thick IF it can be supported by the inner most level in the casting near the top surface. Below that don't matter... No need to accommodate for all that goofyness... as long as the set screws will rest on something flat and solid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by woodnthings View Post
I had some 953 inserts from Fulton/peachtree and tried them in the extra saw table with the goofy casting bosses. It will fit exactly length and width and depth, but not all the way down on the goofy bosses.. Who Cares? Mine are a few years old and have a very slight convex surface up. I could see if I can get the warp out for my own peace of mind. If you wanted a "no rout" fit this is what I recommend you get.

.
The 953 inserts are thinner than your phenolic ones from Rockler. They don't need to fit into the next level of casting bosses and because they are thinner, they won't. Sounds like it's too simple to work, but I believe it will.

As far as routing your inserts to accurately fit the "goofy bosses" down at the second level, I suggest making an exact male positive using Bondo so you can see what needs to be removed. I don't know how I would use a flush trim bit to do that, so eyeball to a measured line is what I would do. I suggested making a router support surround from a large piece of thick plywood with a hole sized to drop the phenolic insert into. This will eliminate trying to support the weight of a heavy router resting only on a thin edge.... not possible for accurate work. The plywood thickness needs to be the same as the phenolic insert.


OK, I just thought of a way without the CNC. The male positive is inserted into the plywood support so the surfaces are flush. You then trace around the plug using your router base and a pencil to mark the outside profile on a piece of paper taped to the plywood. That becomes the shape of your next level of plywood as a template resting on the top of your support. It may not be perfect, but may be better than "eyeball to a line" ....?


Of course, if you have the male positive plug you could take it to a CNC router and have them make your phenolic inserts to fit. Once they have the program setup, it will be easy and cheap to make any new ones. There are folks here that can do this.... any volunteers?

Another approach! Using the same idea as above, a piece of paper taped to your saw table, extend the bit or use a same diameter wood dowel, so it will trace the "goofy bosses" in the casting onto the paper. You now have a paper template from which you can cut out the female shape in some thin plywood and use your router with a guide bushing or flush trim bit to duplicate the second level of casting bosses.

Ok, I'm done now.... zzzzzzzzzzz
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post #30 of 30 Old 05-16-2018, 03:35 PM
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Phenomenal creativity! Your mind is like the fountain of youth... full of vim and vigor, brimming with ideas and hope. Thank you for all of the suggestions.
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