Kilning and Sterilizing...A MUCH confused process(s) - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
 1Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 32 Old 03-31-2016, 09:16 PM Thread Starter
Sawing against the Wind
 
Tennessee Tim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: God's beautiful hills of Middle Tennessee
Posts: 2,379
View Tennessee Tim's Photo Album My Photos
Kilning and Sterilizing...A MUCH confused process(s)

I'm only going to hit the high points, these DEFINITELY ARE NOT all the points or facts due to complexity of differ woods and processes.

There's many factors in drying, kilning and sterilizing. Most confuse kilning and sterilizing as one and the same and they AREN'T!!!!

Kilning is just a way/format of drying the wood in a speedier controlled process that also allows one to bring to a lower MC than ADing.

Sterilizing is a process of killing bugs and other pests. This can be by chemical, fumigation or as most known HEAT!!! Sterilizing is best done AFTER the MC is brought down to the desired level. There is a newer style where I hear they're extreme heating first BUT I have my reserves about due to MC being TOO high in the beginning which causes stress and checking.

The reason it's thought of as the same is because usually the both are done in the same building/setting.

From all my readings adding too much heat or just dropping MC TOO fast causes major issues when the wood is above 20-25% MC. This causes stress, checking and other issues. That's why green wood has differ MC loss schedules to help prevent the above issues. The readings I've done, most state once below the 20-25% MC it's hard to mess up the lumber.

Drying lumber myself is done via DH with a little heat...90-100 degree is ideal BUT I don't get concerned IF I'm in the 70's....the DH is pulling out the moisture....I set mine @ 30% RH(approx 6% MC depending on temp) and let it run until it quits pulling out moisture for a week or 2, NO need to rush, LET it balance itself out internally.....THEN I sterilize.

A small fan, DH, and a 100 watt lightbulb under a sealed area is ALL
you need to dry the lumber, the light is only to get heat started, after that the DH will produce it's own heat from running......sterilize with the big heat AFTER it's MC correct.

I'm sure there is points I've overlooked and missed BUT this is a base to start from and different views. It's like driving a car, SPEED KILLS and that has many factors built in to outcome.
Jig_saw likes this.

Have a Blessed and Prosperous day in Jesus's Awesome Love, Tim
........www.TSMFarms.com.......... John 3:16-21 ..........
Reveling God's awesome beauty while creating one of-a-kind flitches and heirlooms.
Tennessee Tim is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Tennessee Tim For This Useful Post:
jessesnowden (04-02-2016), mikeswoods (03-31-2016)
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 32 Old 04-01-2016, 01:29 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Chitown cornfields
Posts: 1,110
View aardvark's Photo Album My Photos
And yet, I still drive over the speed limit.

It might be said certain species of wood react differently, but I'm no expert on that. I just push the limits and try to get it done.
aardvark is offline  
post #3 of 32 Old 04-01-2016, 04:48 AM
Member
 
laxin213's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 80
View laxin213's Photo Album My Photos
Kilning and Sterilizing...A MUCH confused process(s)

DH = dehumidifier? Thanks for the post. Learning what I can on the process, maybe one day I'll build my own solar kiln. The rule is to not mix species of wood in the kiln at the same time, correct? Each species has its own "drying cycle"?

I have had load of hard maple this past summer that were dropped near my house. I took some logs to mill and then a big commercial kiln and they sat in their yard for months (August- dec). Stickered, but nobody wanted to deal with them their since they had all these huge orders of thousands of Bf and here's my load of 6, 7, and 8 ' maple like 600 bf. The sales guy on the phone made it sound like they could do it asap, but the lot guys could give a crap less. Many phone calls produced Nothing in follow up. I ended up picking them up, I just drove into their lot, loaded up my wood and left. Nobody stopped Me and the guy I spoke to there never called and said a word.

I took the wood about an hour in the opposite direction to a guy that dried them in his kiln, a much smaller setup, in about 8 weeks. Very nice, fair, and charged me less than they quoted me. I found kiln driers in the State DEC website, they encourage kilns for their sterilization of the invasive bugs.
laxin213 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 32 Old 04-01-2016, 06:26 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Chitown cornfields
Posts: 1,110
View aardvark's Photo Album My Photos
I don't know why differing species can't be died together. There is (to my knowledge) no reason why the cycle can't be interrupted to pull certain dried pieces out and continue the cycle on the rest.

The reason you type of and the costs involved are why I set up my own "Cheap Kiln"!
Theres a posting on my setup. Cost is under $100.oo with a moisture meter included in the price.
Good for small loads.
aardvark is offline  
post #5 of 32 Old 04-01-2016, 10:18 PM Thread Starter
Sawing against the Wind
 
Tennessee Tim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: God's beautiful hills of Middle Tennessee
Posts: 2,379
View Tennessee Tim's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aard View Post
And yet, I still drive over the speed limit.

It might be said certain species of wood react differently, but I'm no expert on that. I just push the limits and try to get it done.
LOL on the speeding , remember I've rode with you....definitely NO brakes on my side!!! I'm trying to get good info out so we all don't "speed" through the process without knowing what can/can't happen to their wood.

[quote=laxin213;1326377]DH = dehumidifier? YES Thanks for the post. Learning what I can on the process, maybe one day I'll build my own solar kiln. The rule is to not mix species of wood in the kiln at the same time, correct? Not necessarily Each species has its own "drying cycle"? YES BUT that also depends on the starting MC. With the home DH it probably couldn't pull a load down too fast (I'm guessing)

I have had load of hard maple this past summer that were dropped near my house. I took some logs to mill and then a big commercial kiln and they sat in their yard for months (August- dec). Stickered, but nobody wanted to deal with them their since they had all these huge orders of thousands of Bf and here's my load of 6, 7, and 8 ' maple like 600 bf. The sales guy on the phone made it sound like they could do it asap, but the lot guys could give a crap less. Many phone calls produced Nothing in follow up. I ended up picking them up, I just drove into their lot, loaded up my wood and left. Nobody stopped Me and the guy I spoke to there never called and said a word.

I took the wood about an hour in the opposite direction to a guy that dried them in his kiln, a much smaller setup, in about 8 weeks. Very nice, fair, and charged me less than they quoted me. I found kiln driers in the State DEC website, they encourage kilns for their sterilization of the invasive bugs. YES I encourage sterilizing also....I foresee a future bug issue with all the barnwood being ripped off and put directly into houses....BUUUUUGGGGGSSSSS!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aard View Post
I don't know why differing species can't be died together. This depends on the starting MC...anything below 20-25% isn't going to hurt mixed. There is (to my knowledge) no reason why the cycle can't be interrupted to pull certain dried pieces out and continue the cycle on the rest. Some do this.

The reason you type of and the costs involved are why I set up my own "Cheap Kiln"!
Theres a posting on my setup. Cost is under $100.oo with a moisture meter included in the price.
Good for small loads.

Have a Blessed and Prosperous day in Jesus's Awesome Love, Tim
........www.TSMFarms.com.......... John 3:16-21 ..........
Reveling God's awesome beauty while creating one of-a-kind flitches and heirlooms.
Tennessee Tim is offline  
post #6 of 32 Old 04-02-2016, 03:22 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Chitown cornfields
Posts: 1,110
View aardvark's Photo Album My Photos
Hey, I kept it under 90.
Ha!

From your standpoint I agree with everything your posting, ESPECIALLY THE BUG KILL !!!!. If you sold bug infested wood, that might be a heck of a liability issue. If I sold finished furniture and all of the sudden there was sawdust on the floor,,, Not Good Either !

I do push the limits when drying for myself as you (Tim) well know. That oak pyramid I put in the kiln at 50% m.c., but I was counting on the cracking and a little warping happened as well. I incorporated it into the design and filled the voids with epoxy. I didn't compromise on the bug kill, however.
When I kiln wood that is higher than 25% I can count on a appreciable loss of product due to cracking and twisting. If you can live with those losses it's up to you, but I'm the exception to the rule here. Most would not do as I do.
aardvark is offline  
post #7 of 32 Old 04-02-2016, 10:26 AM Thread Starter
Sawing against the Wind
 
Tennessee Tim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: God's beautiful hills of Middle Tennessee
Posts: 2,379
View Tennessee Tim's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aard View Post
Hey, I kept it under 90.
Ha!

From your standpoint I agree with everything your posting, ESPECIALLY THE BUG KILL !!!!. If you sold bug infested wood, that might be a heck of a liability issue. If I sold finished furniture and all of the sudden there was sawdust on the floor,,, Not Good Either !

I do push the limits when drying for myself as you (Tim) well know. That oak pyramid I put in the kiln at 50% m.c., but I was counting on the cracking and a little warping happened as well. I incorporated it into the design and filled the voids with epoxy. I didn't compromise on the bug kill, however.
When I kiln wood that is higher than 25% I can count on a appreciable loss of product due to cracking and twisting. If you can live with those losses it's up to you, but I'm the exception to the rule here. Most would not do as I do.
And THANKS for keeping under 90.....I don't know if the floorboard could handle anymore...LOL!!!! I did enjoy the trip...

**JUST FOR the RECORD, Aard was much safer than we sound here...I drive more defensively and he drives more offensively. I have raced and LOVE IT ...BUT... on the highways and byways I'm reserved due to being a extractation tech and I've worked ALOT of unnecessary crashes and deaths.


When I kiln wood that is higher than 25% I can count on a appreciable loss of product due to cracking and twisting. If you can live with those losses it's up to you, but I'm the exception to the rule here. Most would not do as I do.[/QUOTE]

This is the part I want others to understand, as you and I have discussed this prior to these posts.

In large junks/logs/slabs, there is loss at both paces in drying but as long as a person knows this up front than it's their call. Also in large chunks as the pyramid, deep EMC is almost impossible in a short time frame except maybe by vacuum kilning.

Also drying as for lumber and slabs needs the EQUILIBRIUM balance with the MC for lumber to stay stable and speed doesn't always get that.

Have a Blessed and Prosperous day in Jesus's Awesome Love, Tim
........www.TSMFarms.com.......... John 3:16-21 ..........
Reveling God's awesome beauty while creating one of-a-kind flitches and heirlooms.
Tennessee Tim is offline  
post #8 of 32 Old 04-02-2016, 12:33 PM
Senior Member
 
bmarshall9686's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 116
View bmarshall9686's Photo Album My Photos
I suggest using a hair dryer about 6 inches away, you can dry 1 bf in about 6 weeks
bmarshall9686 is offline  
post #9 of 32 Old 04-02-2016, 05:42 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Chitown cornfields
Posts: 1,110
View aardvark's Photo Album My Photos
Hey, TIM. That floorboard wasn't too rusty. It could have handled 120 and a heavier foot press.
I take offensively to that!
Ha!

marshall
Maybe pen blanks?

When Tim cut up a green (wet) oak pyramid for me, 4 sided w/ bottom and all sides 20" long, the m.c. was around 50%.
I roughed it out further than his chainsaw cuts and immediately got it into a kiln. First I weighed it and it came in at 83 lbs.
After 2 weeks of constant hard kilning the weight drops stopped and it was at 52 lbs . Lotta water weight was lost
. I kept kilning it and the weight didn't drop any more. Essentially it was as dry as it could go. Outside measured less than 6%, but the inside was uncheckable. It had cracked and split in about 3 locations and the side twisted.

You see the standard rules were broken. I don't advocate anyone does this. Tim's methods are correct and as he says, "If a person knows up front, it's their call".

When you are kilning for others, the rules apply.
Tim didn't kiln it,,, I did. He had reservations to what I was doing.

Last edited by aardvark; 04-02-2016 at 05:52 PM.
aardvark is offline  
post #10 of 32 Old 04-03-2016, 08:14 AM
Senior Member
 
bmarshall9686's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 116
View bmarshall9686's Photo Album My Photos
Would this same rule apply to a solar kiln?
bmarshall9686 is offline  
post #11 of 32 Old 04-03-2016, 09:38 AM Thread Starter
Sawing against the Wind
 
Tennessee Tim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: God's beautiful hills of Middle Tennessee
Posts: 2,379
View Tennessee Tim's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmarshall9686 View Post
Would this same rule apply to a solar kiln?
Yes Solar kilns have regs also.....believe it or not ADing has rules and regs. even though it's a slower process. Some woods can tolerate a fast MC removal while others need a slow. Solar kilns have vents to open and shut to regulate the loss rates and to help control the temps. There's a group out of Wisconson or Minnesota that have GREAT info on solar kilning. Their layout is one I've considered very much...it has a good heat trap source with a better regulating system where the wood isn't directly in the sun/heat chamber....very well thought out!!!

ADing....YES I take measures to protect my wood from the elements and direct sunlight, BUT I also have to make sure there's enough fresh air exchange to prevent molds.

One of the best in our lower production world that was VERY helpful is DAREN....he had a way of explaining in plain chat the most of us could understand.

I've read many theories on drying....YES they're theories/ideas...and I took valuable info from all of them and comprised what I seen as a natural event and what would be TOO forceful. Dr GENE on woodweb.com has been very helpful also....he understands the high production end of drying....this/these idea(s) require a lot of gauges and gadgets to stay in precision controlled correct push the limits without destroying. I wasn't interested in going that far BUT I/you still need to know the basics and fundamentals of what is good and bad whether large or small scale of drying.

The main thing is KNOW the fundamentals and decide WHAT you're willing to RISK or NOT.

Have a Blessed and Prosperous day in Jesus's Awesome Love, Tim
........www.TSMFarms.com.......... John 3:16-21 ..........
Reveling God's awesome beauty while creating one of-a-kind flitches and heirlooms.
Tennessee Tim is offline  
post #12 of 32 Old 04-04-2016, 01:42 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Chitown cornfields
Posts: 1,110
View aardvark's Photo Album My Photos
The problem I see with solar kilns is the temperatures are inconsistent and dependent on the sunshine, or lack thereof.
At night, there is nothing. So the wood temp varies hour to hour. If you have a massive stack, the stack will retain (most of it's ) heat overnight, but smaller stacks can't do that as easily. And then...what happens the next morning if you have a number of cloudy days?

I try to keep my stacks at 90 degrees 24/7 and a bug kill cycle towards the end and back to 90 again for a last day and slowly drop off back to room temp for a number of hours before removing the wood at the very end.
I simply can't see how that would be possible with a solar kin.

Maybe I'm uninformed here and beg to be corrected if I'm wrong.

Upside is there is no cost for fuel/electricity to keep heaters going.
aardvark is offline  
post #13 of 32 Old 04-04-2016, 07:27 AM
Senior Member
 
bmarshall9686's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 116
View bmarshall9686's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aard View Post
The problem I see with solar kilns is the temperatures are inconsistent and dependent on the sunshine, or lack thereof.
At night, there is nothing. So the wood temp varies hour to hour. If you have a massive stack, the stack will retain (most of it's ) heat overnight, but smaller stacks can't do that as easily. And then...what happens the next morning if you have a number of cloudy days?

I try to keep my stacks at 90 degrees 24/7 and a bug kill cycle towards the end and back to 90 again for a last day and slowly drop off back to room temp for a number of hours before removing the wood at the very end.
I simply can't see how that would be possible with a solar kin.

Maybe I'm uninformed here and beg to be corrected if I'm wrong.

Upside is there is no cost for fuel/electricity to keep heaters going.
As far as I have read, which I'm sure the region you live in can change this, you can have absolute control but it requires attention. You have hatches you can open to regulate the temperatures on a daily basis. As well as a timer on the fan, which was recommended to shut off an hour before sunset... I watched and read a from a great source that I can't think of now.

I think I am going to build one eventually, and there is no reason I couldn't add a heater to it!
bmarshall9686 is offline  
post #14 of 32 Old 04-04-2016, 10:11 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Chitown cornfields
Posts: 1,110
View aardvark's Photo Album My Photos
I understand having ventilation control, but night times and a 2 or 3 day stretch of cloud/rain days can't be controlled. I understand that on cloudy days some solar gain still happens, but I'm curious just how much.
And as said I like to maintain that 90 degree temp without fluctuations.

Here we are living in what's classified as a ''temperate rainforest''..... Lotta rain days.
aardvark is offline  
post #15 of 32 Old 04-04-2016, 12:19 PM
Senior Member
 
bmarshall9686's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 116
View bmarshall9686's Photo Album My Photos
Yeah there is enough moisture in the air to be considered a rain forest
bmarshall9686 is offline  
post #16 of 32 Old 04-04-2016, 08:22 PM Thread Starter
Sawing against the Wind
 
Tennessee Tim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: God's beautiful hills of Middle Tennessee
Posts: 2,379
View Tennessee Tim's Photo Album My Photos
Very few IF NONE in a solar kiln can maintain the kill temp at the center of wood to be effective... they're not designed to...they're designed to speed up a drying process which works like ADing but gathers heat faster and keeps wood from gaining MC at night or bad weather. I think they're grand in how they cycle the wood...kinda like squeezing a sponge and relaxing it, the MC releases better and works it's way out sooner from the center, this cycle also reduces stress internally in the wood as it dries.

Most solar kilns have a fan/electric source that operates flaps and vents....yes there are some that are ALL Manually controlled.

Have a Blessed and Prosperous day in Jesus's Awesome Love, Tim
........www.TSMFarms.com.......... John 3:16-21 ..........
Reveling God's awesome beauty while creating one of-a-kind flitches and heirlooms.
Tennessee Tim is offline  
post #17 of 32 Old 04-04-2016, 10:11 PM
Senior Member
 
bmarshall9686's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 116
View bmarshall9686's Photo Album My Photos
I have only seen the manual kind but automated sure sounds nice. I think my process would be to solar kiln it, and towards the end of the cycle introduce a heat source to seal the deal.
bmarshall9686 is offline  
post #18 of 32 Old 04-04-2016, 10:56 PM Thread Starter
Sawing against the Wind
 
Tennessee Tim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: God's beautiful hills of Middle Tennessee
Posts: 2,379
View Tennessee Tim's Photo Album My Photos
Here's their link.... http://timbergreenforestry.com/Solar...e%20Kilns.html .This group has the most informational site I've found that makes sense and lines up with nature also. It's been a while since I've read their articles, yes more than one, I don't recall if they get a bug killing heat somehow or if they do or do not attempt....DO NOTE: they pre-dry down to 12% in a accelerated set-up in this building prior to solaring down to 6%.

After relooking at their simple plan Aards is fairly close except electric (note their moisture release) BUT they start at a differ MC when finalizing.

Have a Blessed and Prosperous day in Jesus's Awesome Love, Tim
........www.TSMFarms.com.......... John 3:16-21 ..........
Reveling God's awesome beauty while creating one of-a-kind flitches and heirlooms.
Tennessee Tim is offline  
post #19 of 32 Old 04-05-2016, 04:02 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Chitown cornfields
Posts: 1,110
View aardvark's Photo Album My Photos
Well, heres one version of a solar kiln.
Drying chair legs on the blacktop driveway in July...and cooking breakfast at the same time.
Note:
The temp was over 150 degrees and my breakfast was coming along fine. (It was hotter in my car.)

Ha!
Attached Images
  

Last edited by aardvark; 04-05-2016 at 04:10 AM.
aardvark is offline  
post #20 of 32 Old 04-05-2016, 07:33 AM
Senior Member
 
bmarshall9686's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 116
View bmarshall9686's Photo Album My Photos
This is great! You do know we all are neighbors and I look forward to hearing from you all.
bmarshall9686 is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome