Using ground stone in cracks - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
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post #1 of 45 Old 04-19-2019, 05:42 PM Thread Starter
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Using ground stone in cracks

I’m about to use ground stone in a crack for the first time.

I have thin epoxy, so I’m not too concerned about it getting into the nooks and crannies.

Do you usually mix the stone with the epoxy and pour the slurry in, -or- do you put the stone in the crack and pour the epoxy over top of it?
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post #2 of 45 Old 04-19-2019, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Quickstep View Post
I知 about to use ground stone in a crack for the first time.

I have thin epoxy, so I知 not too concerned about it getting into the nooks and crannies.

Do you usually mix the stone with the epoxy and pour the slurry in, -or- do you put the stone in the crack and pour the epoxy over top of it?
Depends on the epoxy you can get. Most of it today would harden up while you were stirring the stone it. If you can get some slow set epoxy I would probably mix it together first and apply it a little shallow and then top it off with just epoxy.
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post #3 of 45 Old 04-19-2019, 06:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quickstep View Post
Do you usually mix the stone with the epoxy and pour the slurry in, -or- do you put the stone in the crack and pour the epoxy over top of it?
Hi Quickstep,

I can't wait to see this project finished...You referenced it a few times...

I'm particular about epoxy type/manufacture for a number of reasons. It's not the manufacture (per se) but what folks try to do with the epoxies. They are not all the same by any means. Yet this is moot since you've made your selection, and I will presume done some test sampling for cure rate, bond strength, etc.?

So to your questions (very good ones by the way...) here is the methods I've used for decades in exactly this and related formats:

1. Generate a "guesstimate" calculation for volume needed to fill the fissures.

2. Weigh out the requisite resin and hardener to comply to the volume calculation. Note its been my experience that many manufacture recommend ratios for not only their product but possibly cure rate as well are better achieved by weights not liquid measure. Yours may be different?...Few manufactures of "high end" and/or specialty epoxies "like" there blends mixed based on just the "liquid measure" modality that I have dealt with.

3. At this point I would offer that a "sample board" for your given epoxy has already been made and calculated so you understand cure rates, stone dust density requirements, and any other coloring mixing rations of other stone dust colors are all worked out.

4. Now that you know your stone dust/powder ratios mix...that you like...to achieve the color depth and aesthetic style...come roughly close to the same mix ratios as the epoxy itself (be it by weight or liquid measure) and place the stone dust proportionally in each the hardener and resin. Mix the stone dust/powder well into each material till full saturation of the dust is achieved.

Note: IF...your epoxy is not a faster setting blend you can premix the hardener and resin and then the stone dust/powder. Step #4. allows you to do a better job of mixing without loosing working time...

5. "Wet" the fissures with some of the epoxy before doing any pouring. Some like to "wet" with the blended material some like to only wet with pure unadulterated epoxies. I use both methods depending on application (i.e. vivarium, climbing wall, artificial stone to real stone repare, etc.)

6. Now that wetting is done pour or plaster you fissures with the blend till the fissure is slightly over filled. "Powder" the area with stone dust/powder to the point that the epoxy looks dry. If in a few minutes it "re-wets" and looks tacky at all...re-powder. Repeat this until the area reaches load limit and does not "re-wet."

7. Grinding, sanding and polishing has more steps we can get into later (if you wish?) as diamond abrasives will make this task much simpler and of a much better quality depending on aesthetic effect you wish to achieve.

Good Luck,

j

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post #4 of 45 Old 04-19-2019, 06:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
Depends on the epoxy you can get. Most of it today would harden up while you were stirring the stone it. If you can get some slow set epoxy I would probably mix it together first and apply it a little shallow and then top it off with just epoxy.
This is not accurate...You mix the stone dust into the hardener and the resin separately in most applications modalities related to Quicksteps project type...Set time has no bearing on this at all other than familiarity with the type of epoxy your using...

No...you do not!!!..."top if off with just epoxy"...IF...actually creating a stone epoxy blend method...

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Last edited by Jay C. White Cloud; 04-19-2019 at 06:28 PM.
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post #5 of 45 Old 04-19-2019, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Jay C. White Cloud View Post
This is not accurate...You mix the stone dust into the hardener and the resin separately in most applications modalities related to Quicksteps project type...Set time has no bearing on this at all other than familiarity with the type of epoxy your using...

No...you do not!!!..."top if off with just epoxy"...IF...actually creating a stone epoxy blend method...
If you mix the stone into part a or b separately it will be difficult to get the two parts mixed together properly. There will be spots with insufficient mix which will never harden. It's very important that both parts of the epoxy are thoroughly mixed together.

I don't mean leave the stone mix 1/4" shallow and clear coat the top. I mean leave it just shallow enough the stone will certainly not stick up above the surface.
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post #6 of 45 Old 04-19-2019, 08:08 PM Thread Starter
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I’m using MAS low viscosity resin with slow hardener. It’s pretty thin to begin with and warming it makes it as thin as cream.

I put the stone chips in the crack, warmed the mixed epoxy and poured it on. I didn’t get the penetration I expected so I dragged out the stone for another try.

For the second try, I put some epoxy in the crack, let it sink to the bottom and then added some stone. Then a little more epoxy and a little more stone until it was filled. One last bit of epoxy, and a coating of stone.

We’ll see how it looks after this. I have two more cracks to do, then it gets turned.

Fingers crossed...
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post #7 of 45 Old 04-19-2019, 08:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
...If you mix the stone into part a or b separately it will be difficult to get the two parts mixed together properly. There will be spots with insufficient mix which will never harden. It's very important that both parts of the epoxy are thoroughly mixed together...
No...it won't be difficult to get the two parts mixed properly..

No...there will not...be spots that are insufficiently mixed...unless you don't sufficiently mix it...

It does harden just fine as I gave the direction to do it...

Your directions, as offered are still incorrect in most application methods like this...

If your experiences are different in creating artifical stone and related modalites...then please Steve....do share and/or show examples of your work (or collegues?) that work in artificial stone...and its various applications.

Here are just a few links of work I can and have done in this area and the related modalities...Now I would like to see yours?

"Climbnasium" (aka The Barn Climbing Wall)

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
...I don't mean leave the stone mix 1/4" shallow and clear coat the top. I mean leave it just shallow enough the stone will certainly not stick up above the surface....
Put simply...that is wrong...That is not how its typically done at all...but yes, you can do that if you want it to look like "stone dust under epoxy."

However, if you want it to look like real stone...or..."polished stone" then the guidance you are giving is both incorrect and distracting from the post topic...

As suggest in my first post...step by step...are the methods often used (with variations) to achieve what Quickstep has asked.

When Quickstep is ready, I can share (*if he wishes?) the method(s) (there are several according to medium application and desired effect) for grinding, sanding and polishing this out accordingly....

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Last edited by Jay C. White Cloud; 04-19-2019 at 08:46 PM.
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post #8 of 45 Old 04-19-2019, 08:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quickstep View Post
..Fingers crossed...
If it works Quickstep, then you have your method...good luck!

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post #9 of 45 Old 04-19-2019, 09:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay C. White Cloud View Post
No...it won't be difficult to get the two parts mixed properly..

No...there will not...be spots that are insufficiently mixed...unless you don't sufficiently mix it...

It does harden just fine as I gave the direction to do it...

Your directions, as offered are still incorrect in most application methods like this...

If your experiences are different in creating artifical stone and related modalites...then please Steve....do share and/or show examples of your work (or collegues?) that work in artificial stone...and its various applications.

Here are just a few links of work I can and have done in this area and the related modalities...Now I would like to see yours?

"Climbnasium" (aka The Barn Climbing Wall)

Vivarium

金継ぎ Kintsugi



Put simply...that is wrong...That is not how its typically done at all...but yes, you can do that if you want it to look like "stone dust under epoxy."

However, if you want it to look like real stone...or..."polished stone" then the guidance you are giving is both incorrect and distracting from the post topic...

As suggest in my first post...step by step...are the methods often used (with variations) to achieve what Quickstep has asked.

When Quickstep is ready, I can share (*if he wishes?) the method(s) (there are several according to medium application and desired effect) for grinding, sanding and polishing this out accordingly....
The method I suggested works fine. Just because it's different from yours doesn't make it wrong.
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post #10 of 45 Old 04-19-2019, 10:17 PM
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I miss the good old days when .....

A question is posted ......
An answer is given ......
Another answer is given using a different method.....
OP responds with "thanks"





Now we have referencing of previous replies in annoying separated quotations and bickering over who is right and who is wrong and asking for references ... "show me that your way is right" kinda thing. All the bickering lately is diminishing the quality of the forum.


Let the OP decide which method if any they choose to employ .....
As was done in this case.

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
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post #11 of 45 Old 04-20-2019, 12:41 PM
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Sadly this site is becoming nothing more than a contest to see who can come up with the wildest idea to accomplish something that has been done as a best practice for years, maybe centuries.

There is a degree of jealousy toward anyone new that comes along offering wisdom acquired through years of actual experience causing those people to simply drop out.

There is no shame in not having a solution for every problem, simply let those familiar with the situation have their say and move on.

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post #12 of 45 Old 04-20-2019, 06:01 PM Thread Starter
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Something just occurred to me about his project...

I知 filling these cracks BEFORE turning the piece. I didn稚 think I could turn it with the cracks in it.

Will I be able to turn it with the chips in it? Carbide tools?
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post #13 of 45 Old 04-20-2019, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quickstep View Post
Something just occurred to me about his project...

I知 filling these cracks BEFORE turning the piece. I didn稚 think I could turn it with the cracks in it.

Will I be able to turn it with the chips in it? Carbide tools?
Not unless you wanna be picking fragments of carbide out of your lathe bed after the inserts shatter. Only way you could 'turn' stone filled like that is by grinding it, any cutting tool will hit the stone, and, well...

Every hit a brick with a lawnmower?

I need cheaper hobby
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post #14 of 45 Old 04-20-2019, 06:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quickstep View Post
Something just occurred to me about his project...

I知 filling these cracks BEFORE turning the piece. I didn稚 think I could turn it with the cracks in it.

Will I be able to turn it with the chips in it? Carbide tools?
Yea, you would tear up your lathe tools and probably the turning if you had rocks in it. You might fill it with just clear epoxy until you get it turned and sanded. Then dig out the epoxy and fill with rocks. Leave it on the faceplate to where you can sand the epoxy smooth to the shape of the turning though. It would be a lot easier to sand and shape while turning.
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post #15 of 45 Old 04-20-2019, 09:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quickstep View Post
Something just occurred to me about his project...

I知 filling these cracks BEFORE turning the piece. I didn稚 think I could turn it with the cracks in it.

Will I be able to turn it with the chips in it? Carbide tools?
Hello Quickstep,

I do have to share, at this point in the post thread, that I think it is rather discouraging to suggest you can't do this the way you have chosen to. I turn stone and wood both so of course you can do it...Its a mater of modality...not whether you "can" or "can't...

Part of the reasoning for the action steps I offered earlier is this quandary you now have...yet it is not a big deal at all...per se.

There are many forms of "artificial stone work" even within the context of just the wood turning alone, not to mention all the other applications I mention in my first post to you...

So, first, yes you can turn a piece with the "chips of stone" in it...or...rough turn it at least to the "almost" finish condition. It's tricky as you can catch an edge, and I would offer not the most common practice in my experience of doing it or seeing it done by collegues, or family.

Back to your "stone chips." It doesn't sound like you have used stone dust/or powder, (to be clear about your chosen tack in this project?) yet rather, you have chosen to employ full chucks, chips of stone within a matrix of epoxy? That is not typically how it is done...but...it is still done that way for certain types of effects and looks, so no worries if you want to proceed this way...

It is going to be more of a challenge to turn. I'm not sure, without getting really "wordy" that I can take you through all of it, nor do I want to now in this post thread unless your interested and o.k. with me doing so...???...as your already getting contradictive information from others. I wish not to debate these point further on you post thread unless you wish details of the methods I know are used to do this work properly?

I can say it is more than achievable and/or you may have to add a few tools to you collection (not that expensive at all either.) You probably should practice turn some example stock first to get a "knack" for it. Carving with another rotary tool instead of just the carbide alone, while at the same time "turning" is an advanced turning technique. However, depending on the stone species/type. the chip sizes you used, and the type of epoxy and wood itself, you can do it just with the carbide......but it is a much more challenging, finesse and skill oriented task.

Remember all the Tungsten Carbide is 9 on a Mohs scale just below diamond, so no stone (other than diamond) is really going to be "harder" than your cutting tool is. However, it is brittle and sensitive to shock...that is why angle of attack and finesse is critical to these methods...if just using carbide tools... Otherwise its a concert of tools (including rotary diamond) and carbide that will get "chunk stone" turned when held in a matrix of epoxy...

So, yes...in short, you can turn your piece still...just not as easily as if powdered/dust stone methods I suggested earlier...

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post #16 of 45 Old 04-20-2019, 09:54 PM
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Using "ground stone" in an epoxy matrix .....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quickstep View Post
I’m about to use ground stone in a crack for the first time.

I have thin epoxy, so I’m not too concerned about it getting into the nooks and crannies.
Do you usually mix the stone with the epoxy and pour the slurry in, -or- do you put the stone in the crack and pour the epoxy over top of it?
This is a "which way to do it" question.
Obviously, there at least 2 ways to do this and either may be correct..... ?

There are some additional issues:
How fine is the stone ground?
Should the stone be kept below the final surface which is going to be turned ... probably with conventional HSS turning tools.....?
Should the OP go out and buy carbide tools for this project?

My "opinion" is that the stone should be kept below the final level of the finished turning, either by careful observation OR by doing the process in 2 stages. That way it won't matter how fine the stone is ground and it will have no deleterious/bad effect on the turning tools or the object being turned AND no carbide tooling is needed.


The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
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post #17 of 45 Old 04-20-2019, 10:54 PM Thread Starter
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The stone is small crushed stone chips. The smaller pieces are the size of sand; the larger chunks are the size of kosher salt.

Here’s a picture of the stuff The screw in the picture is a 1-1/4” drywall screw.
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post #18 of 45 Old 04-20-2019, 11:46 PM
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The stone is small crushed stone chips. The smaller pieces are the size of sand; the larger chunks are the size of kosher salt...Here痴 a picture of the stuff The screw in the picture is a 1-1/4 drywall screw.
Hello Quickstep,

Do you know what kind of stone that is?

It's hard to tell from just photos, yet seeing the size of these "chips" I am even less concerned with just a "carbide" turning method if you're up for it...???

I would still like to see you practice on at least a couple turning blanks set up in the same way, including all the same parameters roughly. With that done, I think you will have acquired the "muscle memory" to pull it off just fine...

Or...if you wish?

I can outline some of the other possible approaches with the other methods for shaping this outside the context of carbide alone...

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post #19 of 45 Old 04-21-2019, 01:03 AM
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Personally I like adding steel dust and shavings to turnings. Normally use super glue for that. Epoxy and stone sounds really neat though, whatcha turning mate?


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post #20 of 45 Old 04-21-2019, 02:15 AM
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When turning stone it is very important to use good dust protection, much of the dust is very harmful, silica and asbestos are two byproducts that you really want to avoid breathing. I was not aware until recently that soapstone may have veins of asbestos running through it.
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