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post #41 of 55 Old 04-03-2016, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by BZawat View Post
^^^ You're wasting your time Danno. It should not be so difficult to explain this extremely simple concept.

We've got one guy talking about leveling furniture, and another guy talking about leveling kitchen cabinets. Sometimes I think that people disagree just to disagree, without actually reading and comprehending the post that they disagree with.


Not everyone is being an antagonist here. I simply don't get what you two are referring to. I have never claimed to know everything and am always trying to learn new things, that's one of the things I value about this site.

I don't know why I'm not getting it, maybe because I'm more of a visual person. If one of you guys posted up a picture with a level being used as your describing maybe it would make a difference?


Anyway for the most part I am bowing out of this discussion unless someone feels like educating me....
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post #42 of 55 Old 04-03-2016, 05:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BZawat View Post
^^^ You're wasting your time Danno. It should not be so difficult to explain this extremely simple concept.

We've got one guy talking about leveling furniture, and another guy talking about leveling kitchen cabinets. Sometimes I think that people disagree just to disagree, without actually reading and comprehending the post that they disagree with.
I don't get it either. We're doing a customer service desk similar to the one you posted except it's a 30' radius. All done with corian tops. All of which need to be sanded TOGETHER to get the seamless look. If that stuff's not levelled first, you're asking for trouble.

Anyways, thanks BZawat. At least I'm not alone in this.
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post #43 of 55 Old 04-03-2016, 06:37 PM
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I think that most on here are saying the same thing, only in a different way. That is:

The building of the cabinets in the shop does not require a level. (may need one if setting up to display)

The installation of the cabinets does need a level to accomplish a "level" installation.

George
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post #44 of 55 Old 04-03-2016, 07:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chamfer View Post
Not everyone is being an antagonist here. I simply don't get what you two are referring to. I have never claimed to know everything and am always trying to learn new things, that's one of the things I value about this site.

I don't know why I'm not getting it, maybe because I'm more of a visual person. If one of you guys posted up a picture with a level being used as your describing maybe it would make a difference?


Anyway for the most part I am bowing out of this discussion unless someone feels like educating me....
Full scale assembly of large complicated millwork pieces in the shop is common. The pictures shared are very far from basic casework. It gives the builder a chance to work out problems and verify measurements and fits before it hits the finish shop and gets delivered. A full scale assembly is often necessary to inform other parts of the job such as radii or tops which are shipped as part of the package. Leveling it as it will be installed is part of the fit up. The CYA factor that was mentioned is a big part of it. Based on the install schedules on some jobs taking the time for the fit up in invaluable as any problems complete derail the project.

It's not a step that is usually necessary for residential cabinetry. As you and others have noted square and parallel boxes are enough to insure success. That being said I have never been in a millwork or cab shop that didn't have multiple levels on their tool shelves.
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post #45 of 55 Old 04-03-2016, 07:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Huisenga View Post
Full scale assembly of large complicated millwork pieces in the shop is common. The pictures shared are very far from basic casework. It gives the builder a chance to work out problems and verify measurements and fits before it hits the finish shop and gets delivered. A full scale assembly is often necessary to inform other parts of the job such as radii or tops which are shipped as part of the package. Leveling it as it will be installed is part of the fit up. The CYA factor that was mentioned is a big part of it. Based on the install schedules on some jobs taking the time for the fit up in invaluable as any problems complete derail the project.

It's not a step that is usually necessary for residential cabinetry. As you and others have noted square and parallel boxes are enough to insure success. That being said I have never been in a millwork or cab shop that didn't have multiple levels on their tool shelves.
That's a great explanation. Thanks.
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post #46 of 55 Old 04-03-2016, 08:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Huisenga View Post

It's not a step that is usually necessary for residential cabinetry. As you and others have noted square and parallel boxes are enough to insure success. That being said I have never been in a millwork or cab shop that didn't have multiple levels on their tool shelves.


Well we can agree on that at least.

I still don't understand the rest but that's ok. I appreciate your response and I apologize for being so ignorant.
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post #47 of 55 Old 04-03-2016, 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Jig_saw View Post
Why would you want your furniture to sit "level" on a sloping floor? The level gives the local vertical direction, i.e., straight line passing through Earth's center. If the floor is not exactly horizontal, then making a table top level will make it appear to be crooked to any person standing there! It defeats the very purpose of trying to make things look straight.
Put a pencil down on a desk that goes with the slope of an uneven floor and see what happens. That being said, this was never about furniture.

Thanks for all the replies. As frustrating as it was, it's still a pretty good discussion.
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post #48 of 55 Old 04-03-2016, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Chamfer View Post
Well we can agree on that at least.

I still don't understand the rest but that's ok. I appreciate your response and I apologize for being so ignorant.
Look at the second picture in post 23 specifically at the trapped portion of the top. If that top was fabricated to fit to casework that wasn't assembled level the lengths and fit would be different. Even if things are built square and assembled tightly the rack the caused by them being assembled off level before templating the top is enough to throw off a fit which has to be perfect. It would take extra rework onsite to modify and refit to casework that had been assembled and installed level and plumb. Because everything has been assemble and verified for fit the bit of extra time in the shop spent either leveling the casework or assembling on a level table pays off at install.

I work on the millwork install side vs the fabrication/shop side. I have seen more than a few schedules blown apart by rework that could have been avoided if the shop had taken time to dry fit and verify before it hit the field.
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post #49 of 55 Old 04-03-2016, 09:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Huisenga View Post
Look at the second picture in post 23 specifically at the trapped portion of the top. If that top was fabricated to fit to casework that wasn't assembled level the lengths and fit would be different. Even if things are built square and assembled tightly the rack the caused by them being assembled off level before templating the top is enough to throw off a fit which has to be perfect. It would take extra rework onsite to modify and refit to casework that had been assembled and installed level and plumb. Because everything has been assemble and verified for fit the bit of extra time in the shop spent either leveling the casework or assembling on a level table pays off at install.

I work on the millwork install side vs the fabrication/shop side. I have seen more than a few schedules blown apart by rework that could have been avoided if the shop had taken time to dry fit and verify before it hit the field.



I guess if you're making the tops too then maybe you'd want to dry fit things in the shop to make sure things fit together right, but 1. I still don't understand the leveling as each individual final resting place will be different, and 2. I deal with residential cabinetry, so the tops are made and installed by someone else. We make the cabinets as level as we can on install and they do the rest. I don't have any experience with what you are referring to.


I admire your patience in trying to lead this horse to water.
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post #50 of 55 Old 04-03-2016, 11:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chamfer View Post

I guess if you're making the tops too then maybe you'd want to dry fit things in the shop to make sure things fit together right, but 1. I still don't understand the leveling as each individual final resting place will be different, and 2. I deal with residential cabinetry, so the tops are made and installed by someone else. We make the cabinets as level as we can on install and they do the rest. I don't have any experience with what you are referring to.

I admire your patience in trying to lead this horse to water.
Even if each final resting place is different, level is level. What may need a 1/2" shim in the shop, may only need a 1/4" on site. Either way, if it's done level to begin with, it's easier on the guys that need to do it in the end where they may not have the same amount of time to get it done.
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post #51 of 55 Old 04-04-2016, 03:53 AM
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Anyone need a nice level?

For all you who need a nice level, I found this:
https://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/...ican_Blackwood


The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
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post #52 of 55 Old 04-04-2016, 05:06 AM
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I wouldn't mind the pencil rolling off the table top if the table looked symmetrical and parallel to the slightly sloping floor on which it is sitting.


If I had to shim the table a lot to make it exactly level, it will appear crooked relative to the floor, which is bad aesthetics.


On the lighter side, sometimes it will be good to have a deliberately off-level table such as when passing the salt and pepper during a meal.


Well, probably the only time a level may be necessary is when making a pool/billiard table ... otherwise the slightly off-level gravity would direct the balls to move toward one side.
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post #53 of 55 Old 04-04-2016, 08:42 AM
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This is typical of the type of work many modern cabinetmakers do. I built this unit along with others that worked in the same shop, hundreds more like it. http://hawkebackpacking.com/images/p...concord_10.jpg
There are some small shops that do residential work but the majority of working cabinetmakers don't do residential work. Most of us work in the commercial, institutional and industrial field. I think this is lost on hobbyists that don't really know what modern cabinetmakers do. We are constantly faced with complex, multi-level assemblies that must be set up level in the shop in order to build. This cabinet is roughly 20' wide. The first thing I did was to set up sleepers that were level on the shopfloor, and I used a level! The problem is that folks don't or can't think outside their own limited experiences. There is a lot going on in the woodworking world that the general public doesn't understand, even though you see the work around you everyday.
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post #54 of 55 Old 04-04-2016, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeC View Post
This thread gets weirder and weirder.

Just what are you a consultant in/for/with if you do not know where carpenters buy tools.

It is time for you to tell something about yourself.

George


Much of the confusion in this thread is due to the word "carpenter". In US/Canada probably carpenter refers to woodworkers in construction business, while in Europe and Asia it applies to workers in the furniture and cabinet work. It would be interesting to know what the OP is referring to.
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post #55 of 55 Old 04-04-2016, 05:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammer1 View Post
This is typical of the type of work many modern cabinetmakers do. I built this unit along with others that worked in the same shop, hundreds more like it. http://hawkebackpacking.com/images/p...concord_10.jpg
There are some small shops that do residential work but the majority of working cabinetmakers don't do residential work. Most of us work in the commercial, institutional and industrial field. I think this is lost on hobbyists that don't really know what modern cabinetmakers do. We are constantly faced with complex, multi-level assemblies that must be set up level in the shop in order to build. This cabinet is roughly 20' wide. The first thing I did was to set up sleepers that were level on the shopfloor, and I used a level! The problem is that folks don't or can't think outside their own limited experiences. There is a lot going on in the woodworking world that the general public doesn't understand, even though you see the work around you everyday.
That is a very impressive piece...I understand what the professionals are saying in this thread. If I am building a large piece of furniture, and I need to set on the floor, I will make sure it is level via shims or leveler feet(my garage floor is not flat or level). I don't want the furniture to rack, and then install inset doors, etc.

Last edited by cps; 04-04-2016 at 05:50 PM. Reason: clarification
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