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post #1 of 23 Old 05-29-2020, 01:31 PM Thread Starter
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Table Saw blades and cuts

I am building a crosscut sled this weekend for my Dewalt 7491RS table saw and currently have the dewalt blade on it. I just put a 50-60tooth diablo on my miter saw that I dont use that often. Everything I have read says a 50 tooth Diablo combination blade will do crosscuts and rips. I really cant afford to buy several blades so what do you guys think about the combination blade. I am just building outdoor stuff like planters, chairs, etc. I may dabble in some small patio tables and need to joint and glue on the table saw.

Another concern I have is Dewalt says dont use anything larger than 2.2mm thick blades because they are thicker than the riving knife. Diablo list their blades at 2.4mm thick.

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post #2 of 23 Old 05-29-2020, 03:33 PM
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I never went Metric so .......

The Diablo 50 tooth blade measures 0.098" thick:
https://www.amazon.com/Diablo-D1050X.../dp/B00008WQ2Z


How thick is your riving knife in inches? It would be highly unlikely that the thin kerf Diablo blades which are so common these days will not work on any newer table saw, no matter the brand or model.


I used a 40 tooth Diablo blade for several years, it never really got noticably dull, but I just swapped it out last year for the 50 tooth. There is some slow down in the feed rate when ripping, but otherwise give good performance crosscutting various materials and plywood with thin veneers. You may find that you will need a dedicated 24 tooth rip blade eventually IF you cut 2" or thicker hardwood.

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
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post #3 of 23 Old 05-29-2020, 03:35 PM
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the manual says:
NOTE: Different types of blades make different kerfs (width of cuts). Therefore, it is
necessary to check adjustment of rip scale when changing blades. Replacement blade
MUST not exceed the thickness stated on the riving knife. The riving knife provided with
the saw is 2.2 mm thick.


so I suggest you check the information on the riving knife.
my experience has been a kerf narrower than the riving knife thickness makes for severe problems.
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post #4 of 23 Old 05-29-2020, 05:12 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woodnthings View Post
the diablo 50 tooth blade measures 0.098" thick:
https://www.amazon.com/diablo-d1050x.../dp/b00008wq2z


how thick is your riving knife in inches? It would be highly unlikely that the thin kerf diablo blades which are so common these days will not work on any newer table saw, no matter the brand or model.


I used a 40 tooth diablo blade for several years, it never really got noticably dull, but i just swapped it out last year for the 50 tooth. There is some slow down in the feed rate when ripping, but otherwise give good performance crosscutting various materials and plywood with thin veneers. You may find that you will need a dedicated 24 tooth rip blade eventually if you cut 2" or thicker hardwood. <img src="http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/images/woodworkingtalk_2016/smilies/tango_face_plain.png" border="0" alt="" title="serious" class="inlineimg" />
0.086
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post #5 of 23 Old 05-29-2020, 05:14 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomCT2 View Post
the manual says:
NOTE: Different types of blades make different kerfs (width of cuts). Therefore, it is
necessary to check adjustment of rip scale when changing blades. Replacement blade
MUST not exceed the thickness stated on the riving knife. The riving knife provided with
the saw is 2.2 mm thick.


so I suggest you check the information on the riving knife.
my experience has been a kerf narrower than the riving knife thickness makes for severe problems.
That’s what I was thinking. If the Diablo is thicker than the riving knife why would
It matter?
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post #6 of 23 Old 05-29-2020, 05:44 PM
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MUST not exceed the thickness stated on the riving knife - stated on the knife, not the thickness of the riving knife.

here's from my Delta - as you can see they explicitly say the kerf must be wider - the read of
"MUST not exceed the thickness stated on the riving knife"
is different from
"MUST not exceed the thickness of the riving knife"
Table Saw blades and cuts-dsc_4864.jpg

using thin blades, I had to have my riving knife _ground thinner_ because rip cuts would jam - very un-nice.
Table Saw blades and cuts-img_0060s.jpg
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post #7 of 23 Old 05-29-2020, 06:30 PM
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Blades have multiple important dimensions:

* Kerf: The width of the cut.
+ A typical thin kerf blade is 3/32 inch (0.09375 inch = 2.38 mm)
+ A typical full kerf blade is 1/8 inch (0.125 inch = 3.18 mm)

* Body thickness: The thickness of the flat disk part of the blade, excluding the blade tips.
+ See my measurements below for various blade body thicknesses.

* Diameter: Normally 10 inch for a typical table saw.
* Arbor hole size: Normally 5/8 inch for a typical table saw.

The kerf MUST be wider than the riving knife thickness. Otherwise, one or both sides of the cut will bump into the riving knife and stop or deflect the wood, leading to a dangerous situation.

The DeWalt DWE 7491RS user manual says:

'The riving knife provided with this saw is marked as follows:
0.087" (2.2 mm) THICK RIVING KNIFE. ONLY USE FOR 10" (254 MM) [diameter] BLADE WITH 0.094" (2.4 MM) MIN. KERF WIDTH AND 0.067" (1.75 MM) MAX BODY THICKNESS.'


The DeWalt requirement for a 0.067" (1.75 mm) maximum body thickness is thinner than any of the blades that I just measured with calipers:

Thin Kerf Body Thickness
Diablo D1060X: 1.87 mm = 0.074 inch
Makita A93681: 1.82 mm = 0.072 inch
Forrest Woodworker II #6: 1.90 mm = 0.075 inch
Bosch CBT1040A: 1.87 mm = 0.074 inch
Craftsman (too worn to read): 1.86 mm = 0.073 inch

Full Kerf Body Thickness
Freud Fusion P410: 2.52 mm = 0.099 inch
Forrest Woodworker II: 2.34 mm = 0.092 inch

Other Kerf Body Thickness
SawStop (came with PCS175): 2.00 mm = 0.079 inch
(and carbide tips measured an uncommon 3.00 mm)

In case it matters, my old Bosch REAXX jobsite saw manual says, "You must select a blade with a kerf width of .094 or more and a plate (body) thickness .090 or less [...]"
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post #8 of 23 Old 05-29-2020, 06:41 PM
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Arrow

Quote:
Originally Posted by PJM View Post
I am building a crosscut sled this weekend for my Dewalt 7491RS table saw and currently have the dewalt blade on it. I just put a 50-60tooth diablo on my miter saw that I dont use that often. Everything I have read says a 50 tooth Diablo combination blade will do crosscuts and rips. I really cant afford to buy several blades so what do you guys think about the combination blade.
Here is another thought regardless of your riving knife thickness. I have the same saw as you and bought a 60-tooth blade for crosscuts in the sled I built. Works fantastic. When I tried to do some ripping with that blade, the high tooth count ran very slow on the first cut, then I tripped the circuit breaker when I tried starting the saw for the second cut. Too much resistance. I removed the 60-tooth blade & reinstalled the 32-tooth and had no more breaker trips. So while you think you may be saving a bit of coin, you may create anoher problem if your saw can't push that 50-tooth blade well.
EDIT TO ADD: BTW, the ripping I attempted was in dried 1x6 (1" thick) treated deck boards.
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post #9 of 23 Old 05-29-2020, 07:34 PM
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This is not clear to me ...

You stated this:
(what?) ... MUST not exceed the thickness stated on the riving knife - stated on the knife, not the thickness of the riving knife.

here's from my Delta - as you can see they explicitly say the kerf must be wider - the read of ........(What does this mean?)
(what?) ....."MUST not exceed the thickness stated on the riving knife"
is different from
(what?) ...... "MUST not exceed the thickness of the riving knife"



Regardless of all the measurements and data the conclusion is:
A thin kerf Diablo 0.094" will not work on this saw. RIGHT? It needs to be ground down. RIGHT?


If that is the case, what the heck were they thinkin'? Thin kerf blades are more common than house flies in the city dump. DUH.


After some additional thought, you really wouldn't use the riving knife with your crosscut sled anyway ....

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)

Last edited by woodnthings; 05-29-2020 at 07:49 PM.
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post #10 of 23 Old 05-29-2020, 07:51 PM
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P.S. I was curious about that measured 3.0 mm kerf blade and whether it might be standard in other parts of the world that use metric.

I found some 3 mm kerf blades online, but also found this well-written article about thin kerf blades and thick kerf blades, related to riving knife thickness and positioning:

https://www.trentdavis.net/wp/2019/1...riving-knives/


P.P.S. The article also confirms that the kerf on that SawStop blade is 0.118 inch (= 3 mm), which matches what I measured across a few teeth.

Last edited by Tool Agnostic; 05-29-2020 at 07:58 PM.
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post #11 of 23 Old 05-29-2020, 08:05 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woodnthings View Post
You stated this:
(what?) ... MUST not exceed the thickness stated on the riving knife - stated on the knife, not the thickness of the riving knife.

here's from my Delta - as you can see they explicitly say the kerf must be wider - the read of ........(What does this mean?)
(what?) ....."MUST not exceed the thickness stated on the riving knife"
is different from
(what?) ...... "MUST not exceed the thickness of the riving knife"



Regardless of all the measurements and data the conclusion is:
A thin kerf Diablo 0.094" will not work on this saw. RIGHT? It needs to be ground down. RIGHT?


If that is the case, what the heck were they thinkin'? Thin kerf blades are more common than house flies in the city dump. DUH.


After some additional thought, you really wouldn't use the riving knife with your crosscut sled anyway ....
while no knife on the crosscut sled I would like to rip with the same blade too.
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post #12 of 23 Old 05-29-2020, 09:49 PM
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I seem to not be using my riving knife - so its all a moot point.

Retired engineer-bureaucrat in Oakland, CA. Been working with wood since the 1960's.
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post #13 of 23 Old 05-31-2020, 01:54 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomCT2 View Post
the manual says:
NOTE: Different types of blades make different kerfs (width of cuts). Therefore, it is
necessary to check adjustment of rip scale when changing blades. Replacement blade
MUST not exceed the thickness stated on the riving knife. The riving knife provided with
the saw is 2.2 mm thick.


so I suggest you check the information on the riving knife.
my experience has been a kerf narrower than the riving knife thickness makes for severe problems.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tool Agnostic View Post
Blades have multiple important dimensions:

* Kerf: The width of the cut.
+ A typical thin kerf blade is 3/32 inch (0.09375 inch = 2.38 mm)
+ A typical full kerf blade is 1/8 inch (0.125 inch = 3.18 mm)

* Body thickness: The thickness of the flat disk part of the blade, excluding the blade tips.
+ See my measurements below for various blade body thicknesses.

* Diameter: Normally 10 inch for a typical table saw.
* Arbor hole size: Normally 5/8 inch for a typical table saw.

The kerf MUST be wider than the riving knife thickness. Otherwise, one or both sides of the cut will bump into the riving knife and stop or deflect the wood, leading to a dangerous situation.

The DeWalt DWE 7491RS user manual says:

'The riving knife provided with this saw is marked as follows:
0.087" (2.2 mm) THICK RIVING KNIFE. ONLY USE FOR 10" (254 MM) [diameter] BLADE WITH 0.094" (2.4 MM) MIN. KERF WIDTH AND 0.067" (1.75 MM) MAX BODY THICKNESS.'


The DeWalt requirement for a 0.067" (1.75 mm) maximum body thickness is thinner than any of the blades that I just measured with calipers:

Thin Kerf Body Thickness
Diablo D1060X: 1.87 mm = 0.074 inch
Makita A93681: 1.82 mm = 0.072 inch
Forrest Woodworker II #6: 1.90 mm = 0.075 inch
Bosch CBT1040A: 1.87 mm = 0.074 inch
Craftsman (too worn to read): 1.86 mm = 0.073 inch

Full Kerf Body Thickness
Freud Fusion P410: 2.52 mm = 0.099 inch
Forrest Woodworker II: 2.34 mm = 0.092 inch

Other Kerf Body Thickness
SawStop (came with PCS175): 2.00 mm = 0.079 inch
(and carbide tips measured an uncommon 3.00 mm)

In case it matters, my old Bosch REAXX jobsite saw manual says, "You must select a blade with a kerf width of .094” or more and a plate (body) thickness .090” or less [...]"
Gents here is a pic of my splitter and riving knife. It appears that I can use a Diablo blade?
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post #14 of 23 Old 05-31-2020, 02:21 PM
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the D1060X kerf is given as 0.098"=2.4892 mm

that should work just fine with your 2.2 mm riving knife.


broad brush.... one can rip and cross cut with the same blade, up to a point.
thick stock and/or hard stock and/or 'sticky' stock will cause problems for long cuts one after another after another.
rip a 16" chunk, not a problem. rip 20 pcs 96 inches long.... likely not going to go well.


eventually you'll want to get a rip blade. in 10", 20-30 tooth count, flat top grind (FTG) is a good choice for cutting ease, especially in thick (1"+) stock
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post #15 of 23 Old 05-31-2020, 03:22 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomCT2 View Post
the D1060X kerf is given as 0.098"=2.4892 mm

that should work just fine with your 2.2 mm riving knife.


broad brush.... one can rip and cross cut with the same blade, up to a point.
thick stock and/or hard stock and/or 'sticky' stock will cause problems for long cuts one after another after another.
rip a 16" chunk, not a problem. rip 20 pcs 96 inches long.... likely not going to go well.


eventually you'll want to get a rip blade. in 10", 20-30 tooth count, flat top grind (FTG) is a good choice for cutting ease, especially in thick (1"+) stock
I currently have a 24t Dewalt rip blade on it. I was trying to get something duel purpose. I am mostly working with cedar and pine with the hardest being oak.
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post #16 of 23 Old 05-31-2020, 03:43 PM
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ripping vs crosscutting explained

Quote:
Originally Posted by PJM View Post
I currently have a 24t Dewalt rip blade on it. I was trying to get something duel purpose. I am mostly working with cedar and pine with the hardest being oak.

Crosscutting is easiest because the fibers are at 90 degrees to the teeth and you can use either blade for that operation. Ripping with the grain has the fibers parallel with the teeth, so the teeth must be shaped differently to cut them and carry away the waste, so fewer teeth and larger gullets on a ripping blade.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rip_cut


If you stay with this hobby you will eventually decide to have 3 blades, a 24 tooth for ripping, a 40 or 50 tooth general purpose blade on the table saw and a 60 tooth crosscut blade for use on your miter saw or with a crosscut sled. Cutting Melamine and veneer plywood requires a 60 tooth blade for tearout free cuts. When I started out only HSS steel blades were commonly available and the most common carbide tipped ones had very few flat topped teeth, essentially ripping blades. Things have really changed for the better!


I use Diablo thin kerf blades in every saw I have these days, but the tooth count is appropriate for the type of cutting operation. If your feed rate is reasonable, you can get great, clean cuts for glue ups.
I have full kerf blades to install should the need arise.

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)

Last edited by woodnthings; 05-31-2020 at 04:41 PM.
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post #17 of 23 Old 05-31-2020, 05:00 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woodnthings View Post
Crosscutting is easiest because the fibers are at 90 degrees to the teeth and you can use either blade for that operation. Ripping with the grain has the fibers parallel with the teeth, so the teeth must be shaped differently to cut them and carry away the waste, so fewer teeth and larger gullets on a ripping blade.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rip_cut


If you stay with this hobby you will eventually decide to have 3 blades, a 24 tooth for ripping, a 40 or 50 tooth general purpose blade on the table saw and a 60 tooth crosscut blade for use on your miter saw or with a crosscut sled. Cutting Melamine and veneer plywood requires a 60 tooth blade for tearout free cuts. When I started out only HSS steel blades were commonly available and the most common carbide tipped ones had very few flat topped teeth, essentially ripping blades. Things have really changed for the better!


I use Diablo thin kerf blades in every saw I have these days, but the tooth count is appropriate for the type of cutting operation. If your feed rate is reasonable, you can get great, clean cuts for glue ups.
I have full kerf blades to install should the need arise.
So, I just started woodworking and around January I decided to get a HD credit card and buy everything I needed. If I spent $1k I got $100 off and the last thing I needed was a blade. Without really looking I grabbed a Diablo 60 tooth blade and after doing some reading in the last few weeks I saw it wasnt for ripping so I tossed the old blade on the miter saw and put the 60 tooth on it. I guess I could save some coin and take the Diablo off the miter saw and crosscut with it and just keep the 24 tooth Dewalt blade for rips? The miter saw is a 10+yo Ryobi that cuts in and out because it needs a switch so I believe the crosscut sled would be better. Right now I am just doing planters, signs, chairs, etc. Once I start making tables and stuff I figured it would be best to invest in the glue line rip?
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post #18 of 23 Old 05-31-2020, 05:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PJM View Post
Gents here is a pic of my splitter and riving knife. It appears that I can use a Diablo blade?
Yes. Based on the writing on your riving knife, any "thin kerf" blade should meet the requirements, including whichever Diablo thin kerf blade you choose. All of the thin kerf blades I measured, including one by Diablo, are compliant with the specs written on your riving knife.

Your riving knife says: '0.087" (2.2mm) THICK RIVING KNIFE. ONLY USE FOR 10" (254mm) [diameter] BLADE WITH 0.094" (2.4mm) MIN. KERF WIDTH AND 0.079" (2.0mm) MAX BODY THICKNESS'


Off Topic, Interesting Note:
The user manual I found online for your saw must have an error. I think that the maximum body thickness is wrong, as stated in the manual (0.067 inches, 1.75mm).

Last edited by Tool Agnostic; 05-31-2020 at 05:27 PM.
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post #19 of 23 Old 05-31-2020, 05:30 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tool Agnostic View Post
Yes. Based on the writing on your riving knife, any "thin kerf" blade should meet the requirements, including whichever Diablo thin kerf blade you choose. All of the thin kerf blades I measured, including one by Diablo, are compliant with the specs written on your riving knife.

Your riving knife says: '0.087" (2.2mm) THICK RIVING KNIFE. ONLY USE FOR 10" (254mm) [diameter] BLADE WITH 0.094" (2.4mm) MIN. KERF WIDTH AND 0.079" (2.0mm) MAX BODY THICKNESS'


Off Topic, Interesting Note:
The user manual I found online for your saw must have an error. I think that the maximum body thickness is wrong, as stated in the manual (0.067 inches, 1.75mm).
I found a manual that has the correct writing on it. I bounce between my place and my girlfriends and lost the manual between the two homes, so used one online.

So, I was doing some reading and they say dont use a thick blade or high tooth count like the 50 tooth combination blade for ripping on a contractor saw. Any thoughts on that?
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post #20 of 23 Old 05-31-2020, 06:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PJM View Post
I found a manual that has the correct writing on it. I bounce between my place and my girlfriends and lost the manual between the two homes, so used one online.

So, I was doing some reading and they say dont use a thick blade or high tooth count like the 50 tooth combination blade for ripping on a contractor saw. Any thoughts on that?
Who are "they"? Are "they" the user manual, or some other source on the internet? Without context, it is difficult to answer the question.

"They" are correct about not using a "thick blade" with your saw. Any thin kerf blade would be acceptable and meet your saw's requirements.

A "thick blade" would be anything more than a thin kerf blade. Do not use a "full kerf" blade. Full kerf blades exceed the maximum blade body thickness written on your riving knife.

-> Thin kerf blades are readily available and would be appropriate for your saw.

Regarding rip cuts with a 50 tooth combination blade, I dunno. For rip cuts you want fewer teeth. Whether a 50 teeth combination blade for rip cuts is unreasonable for your saw, I can't say. The answer might depend on "which wood?" and "how thick?"

Any combination blade or general purpose blade is a compromise to make "satisfactory" rip cuts and crosscuts without changing blades. You can get better quality cuts with separate, dedicated rip blades and crosscut blades, which is why woodnthings has so many table saws. I have only one table saw at a time, so I get by with general purpose blades, rather than changing blades frequently.

Do you know the difference between combination blades and general purpose blades?
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