staining before gluing? - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
 
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post #1 of 17 Old 03-20-2013, 09:36 AM Thread Starter
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staining before gluing?

If I stain the pieces before gluing in assembly Will that affect The strength of the glue bonding To the wood
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post #2 of 17 Old 03-20-2013, 10:07 AM
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I would say generally yes. I do gluing and assembly and then stain. I would only stain (and/or likely finish) first if access was too difficult.






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post #3 of 17 Old 03-20-2013, 10:19 AM
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I don't stain before assembly, but I've read that you should mask the glue surfaces if you do. So that tells me, yes it weakens the joint.
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post #4 of 17 Old 03-20-2013, 10:26 AM
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Glues work by soaking into the pores of the wood and hardening. If you stain it first the stain partially fills the grain and makes the wood less permeable so it would reduce the strength of the joint. If you really need to stain first then mask off the spots where the parts will be glued.
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post #5 of 17 Old 03-20-2013, 10:28 AM
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I have found that, IF, the stain is DRY, not an issue to glue after such.

I have tested on scraps, you can do the same if you like.

If the stain contains a so called TOP coat, then NO........... GLUE FIRST.

I wish you well,

Dale in Indy
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post #6 of 17 Old 03-20-2013, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterSplinter View Post
If I stain the pieces before gluing in assembly Will that affect The strength of the glue bonding To the wood
Not if the "stain" is really a Dye and is an alcohol or water based aniline.
Yes it will interfere if it is one of those oil stains like what MinWax sells and it gets anywhere where you will need glue.

All the oil based stains are carried by one or more of the so called drying oils: so called because they never really dry, and being oils they will conflict with any adhesive.


If you haven't tried Lockwood Aniline dyes you owe it to yourself to get some and try them out. Alcohol base is for spraying mostly. They are brighter and prettier than most oil stains and easier to use.

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post #7 of 17 Old 03-20-2013, 11:23 AM
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It depends on what you are making. I have my students sand, stain, and finish the inside faces of any boxed project before gluing them up. They've taped off any glue joint surface though. The finish makes any glue that oozes into the box simply pop off the surface after it dries. Best way to finish the inside of a box I know of. Then sand, stain, and finish all the outside surfaces. When I'm creating a surface in assembly that would be hard to get to after assembly I'll often stain and finish it before assembly. Yes, you have to tape off any area that would be part of the glued joinery.
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post #8 of 17 Old 03-20-2013, 11:30 AM
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>>>> Not if the "stain" is really a Dye and is an alcohol or water based aniline.
Yes it will interfere if it is one of those oil stains like what MinWax sells and it gets anywhere where you will need glue.

Correct. Oil based pigment stains like Minwax and others will effectively inhibit the absorption of adhesives so a weak joint results. Alcohol and water based dye stains do not inhibit adhesive penetration so may be used without weakening the joint.

Howie..........
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post #9 of 17 Old 03-20-2013, 12:55 PM
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For large projects, I generally use blue painter's tape to mask off glue areas and do all the finish work possible before assembly, although I may leave an exterior surface or two for post-assembly if the project leads me that way. The only finish I usually apply after assembly is for touch-up. If I'm going to wax, I do that after assembly. I find finishing much easier that way, and I get a more consistent finish.
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post #10 of 17 Old 03-20-2013, 12:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HowardAcheson View Post
Oil based pigment stains like Minwax and others will effectively inhibit the absorption of adhesives so a weak joint results. Alcohol and water based dye stains do not inhibit adhesive penetration so may be used without weakening the joint.
While alcohol and waterbase dye stains may not inhibit absorption, it's also the problem it causes with absorption of glue. Squeeze out or glue smears will affect the stain. Taping off the areas isn't infallible, as glue can and will seep under the tape. There's also the possibility that the edge of the tape could interfere with the joinery. Then you have a mess to deal with.

My recommendation would be to do the gluing and assembly and then if there are problem areas they can be addressed before doing any staining.





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post #11 of 17 Old 03-20-2013, 01:57 PM
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You can do either method...glue first or stain first. Just use the right glue for your application. Everyone seems to be caught in the mindset that there is ONLY ONE type of glue you can use. Just yesterday I glued an acrylic enamel coated piece of mdf to a polyurethane coated piece of maple. I used a cyano acrylate type glue (CCA - or super super glue). I also made and finished some blind dovetail drawers with poly before assembling with traditional yellow glue. I was just careful to not apply the poly on the glue surfaces, and sanded areas where I got sloppy. For that application, it was easier to remove the ill placed poly before assembly than to scrape squeeze out from corners.
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post #12 of 17 Old 03-20-2013, 02:02 PM
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Btw - the tech suport for Titebond is easy to get a hold of and can answer just about any glue related question you can dream up. Here's the number: 800-347-4583
(8 am to 6 pm).
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post #13 of 17 Old 03-20-2013, 04:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SebringDon View Post
I generally use blue painter's tape to mask off glue areas and do all the finish work possible before assembly.
What Don said. Especially for hard to reach or finish areas like the inside of cubbies.
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post #14 of 17 Old 03-20-2013, 07:54 PM Thread Starter
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Thank you guys. The reason i asked is because. I built a few things using 2 different color stains. I plan to build a nice wall tool cabinet and wish to stain the poplar a cherry and leave the maple natural.
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post #15 of 17 Old 03-20-2013, 08:25 PM
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I was practicing dovetails today and saw this thread. I stained the boards first to make them look better when put together. Hardly any stain seeped into where the glue would be in contact with the wood.

Do you guys think this is an accpetable time to stain before glueing?
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post #16 of 17 Old 03-21-2013, 04:20 PM
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>>>> My recommendation would be to do the gluing and assembly and then if there are problem areas they can be addressed before doing any staining.

That's my preference and practice generally but sometimes it works better for me to apply the dye then assemble. Need to be careful though not to have squeeze-out. It can be difficult to clean up.

Howie..........
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post #17 of 17 Old 03-22-2013, 02:12 PM
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I have never - ever - been tempted to stain first. I don't understand why one might.

Squeeze out should not be an issue unless one tries to remove the glue while it is still liquid. That's easily the worst thing to do.
I know what the titebond instructions say and it is nonsense. Never try to remove squeeze out with a wet rag. Never try to scrape it off while it's wet. Leave it be.

Deal with squeeze out by leaving it alone.
Let it dry, sitting lightly on the topmost fibers, do not touch it, and when it is mostly hard with no no liquid core it'll pop right off like it was never there. If you let it harden completely it'll be a little tougher to get off. It'll still come off.
This applies to all titebond, PVA, elmers, white glues, hide, and epoxies too.
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