Slowly Cracking Farm Table Top - Page 2 - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
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post #21 of 32 Old 01-16-2018, 05:22 PM
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Hello...My question/comment is somewhat related to original post. I plan to make a 6' round table with 2" thick walnut that has air dried in my shop for almost 2 years. I plan to join the boards which will be approximately 8" wide, by gluing and clamping. I know that biscuits don't add any strength, with that said, do I just rely on glue? Prior to assembling the top I plan to move the boards into our house (where the table will be located), and let them acclimate to that environment. I will use moisture meter to check boards and compare to existing furniture in the house. Any comments/suggestions will be appreciated.
thanks,
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post #22 of 32 Old 01-16-2018, 05:34 PM
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If you notice most of the problems with table tops are the ones with boards glued across the end or under them, you will not have that problem with a round top if you just glue the boards together and fasten it to the base so the wood can move.
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post #23 of 32 Old 01-19-2018, 02:20 PM
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Today's glues are very good and quite strong. You may try to edge glue piece at a time so you are not rushing through a big glue up and fighting setup time.


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post #24 of 32 Old 03-21-2018, 03:52 AM
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Oops I may have problems with mine then. I glued a board across the table top. I will see how bad it gets. I glued a 2X12 under the top where the legs touch the table top and that board sits on the table legs. The legs are not glued to the top. They are screwed on there but not very tight. There is room for movement.
Slowly Cracking Farm Table Top-table.jpg
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post #25 of 32 Old 03-21-2018, 08:25 AM
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OOOps ...

It is never a good idea to glue cross grain to long grain on a wide board assembly, like a table top.

You table supports should be separate assemblies that the top rests on and is attached to by slotted holes with screws with washers. Here's WHY. Imagine the wood cells in long grain are like "blood vessels" which are filled with moisture, water or whatever ever wood grows with. After harvesting the log, the cells are still filled with that moisture and will dry out slowly over time, but not completely. As the surrounding environment changes humidity, the cells also change their size, expanding or contracting in width. This amount of change may vary as much as 1/8" in a single wide board, so you can not rigidly glue a board across it and restrict this movement. The restriction may cause it to split, depending on the amount of change in dimension, especially if the boards on either side are fastened in this manner, since the change will be accumulative.

Here's the issue I see with your design. Where are people supposed to sit along the sides? You wouldn't want to have to straddle those legs supports, especially a lady, with a skirt or dress. I DO like the looks of it, but to me it's not very practical.

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
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post #26 of 32 Old 03-21-2018, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woodnthings View Post
It is never a good idea to glue cross grain to long grain on a wide board assembly, like a table top.

You table supports should be separate assemblies that the top rests on and is attached to by slotted holes with screws with washers. Here's WHY. Imagine the wood cells in long grain are like "blood vessels" which are filled with moisture, water or whatever ever wood grows with. After harvesting the log, the cells are still filled with that moisture and will dry out slowly over time, but not completely. As the surrounding environment changes humidity, the cells also change their size, expanding or contracting in width. This amount of change may vary as much as 1/8" in a single wide board, so you can not rigidly glue a board across it and restrict this movement. The restriction may cause it to split, depending on the amount of change in dimension, especially if the boards on either side are fastened in this manner, since the change will be accumulative.

Here's the issue I see with your design. Where are people supposed to sit along the sides? You wouldn't want to have to straddle those legs supports, especially a lady, with a skirt or dress. I DO like the looks of it, but to me it's not very practical.

The legs supports are 14 inches from the tables edge all the way around. I was hoping that would be enough. The picture does not really show that but the legs are 14 inches from the edge. fI guess I will see how long it lasts before it starts to crack. My daughter has it in Tennessee.


I am not doubting the theory of wood expansion with cross grain, but I do have one question about that. What about coffee tables and smaller tables? I see the top attached to the legs permanently and they don't crack. How does that work?
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post #27 of 32 Old 03-22-2018, 12:29 AM
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The legs supports are 14 inches from the tables edge all the way around. I was hoping that would be enough. The picture does not really show that but the legs are 14 inches from the edge. fI guess I will see how long it lasts before it starts to crack. My daughter has it in Tennessee.


I am not doubting the theory of wood expansion with cross grain, but I do have one question about that. What about coffee tables and smaller tables? I see the top attached to the legs permanently and they don't crack. How does that work?
I'll take a stab at this one and Woodnthings may correct at will,
1) There's A LOT of things out there incorrectly done AND seem to be holding up BUT they're most likely not undergoing ANY type of MC change from when built.
2) I can permanently mount things as skirts and legs and them not crack PROVIDED I don't glue AND allow for movement as elongated holes, slots, slides, clips, etc., etc.....It's ALL about correct joinery techniques!!!
3) How does that work...they didn't know or maybe didn't care when they built them and mother nature with father time have been on their side, BUT garauntee move them to a extreme MC swing and they will destroy themselves.
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post #28 of 32 Old 03-22-2018, 11:08 AM
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It would be nice if the breadboard end would go out of fashion. Even if everything is done correctly you eventually find yourself in a position of having to trim the ends of the breadboard end and touch up the finish as the top shrinks. There is no telling how many tables I've had to do that on. Some I've had to trim as much as 1/4" off each side.
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post #29 of 32 Old 03-22-2018, 12:59 PM
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It would be nice if the breadboard end would go out of fashion. Even if everything is done correctly you eventually find yourself in a position of having to trim the ends of the breadboard end and touch up the finish as the top shrinks. There is no telling how many tables I've had to do that on. Some I've had to trim as much as 1/4" off each side.
I agree, but, one should be aware of the basics of any craft before starting on a project, wood moves so we have to account for it, metal moves, differently, so there is a technique to welding parts together.

Most problems are caused by inexperience, particularly now that we have the internet to refer to which is a whole other topic.
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post #30 of 32 Old 03-22-2018, 01:22 PM
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...Most problems are caused by inexperience, particularly now that we have the internet to refer to which is a whole other topic...
I couldn't agree more with that statement...For sure!!!



As to "bread boards" going out of fashion or being an issue...Neither (in my view or that of history I would suggest) is the case at all...

Much more of an issue is exactly what Frank just suggested. BB ends have been found thorough history and in just about every wood culture that make such items. Heck, the 청마루 (Cheongmaru) flooring systems of Korea are nothing but an elaborate form of the BB system but on a much grander scale, and just as old. So not only do I not see it going out of style soon, I sure hope it wouldn't. It is a stunning and functional solution to wood movement that just needs to be...once again...better understood and utilized.

My 2Ę...

j
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post #31 of 32 Old 03-23-2018, 02:19 PM
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...
Most problems are caused by inexperience, particularly now that we have the internet to refer to which is a whole other topic.
I totally agree with this...sort of. :) On one hand, nowadays it is abundantly easy to access many fine quality tutorials and "how-to's" on the internet on a variety of subjects, with woodworking being just one of those. That greatly aids beginners and helps to spread the understanding and capability to a wider audience, which is great.

BUT...it can also lead to a false confidence and possibly even dangerous situations...as newbs, literally with their smart phone in hand while watching a how-to video, attempt things that are WAY outside their capabilities. I recently was asked, very thankfully in time, by someone that was going to replace/repair the torsion spring on their faulty garage door. They felt confident proceeding based on a Youtube video and had no idea how dangerous that could potentially be. Had they not asked me and I effectively stopped them...I feel like there was a really good chance that they would have gotten hurt in an effort to DIY.

The internet is a great tool, but one needs to know enough to use that tool properly.
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post #32 of 32 Old 03-24-2018, 01:53 PM
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Yes, as for garage doors go, the best money you can spend is to have a professional do the repairs, just too many unexpected things can happen if you don't know what to look out for.

Wise men speak because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something -Plato

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