In search of tips on how to get to the next level of woodworking - Page 2 - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
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post #21 of 54 Old 03-21-2019, 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by justdraftn View Post
...Thank you! ....it's just a greenhouse. YMMV ...
You are welcome!

and you made me look up YMMV...LMAO!!!...I liked that one...

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Originally Posted by justdraftn View Post
...First, Kreg BlueKote screws are made specifically for what I used them for. ...
Could you expand on that more for me please from your perspective?

This is what I know of it from experience, the PE I work with, and knowledge of the topic.

I went back an looked, still can't really tell, so may well be mistake? It looked like some of the wood is ACQ (aka treated lumber.) Several of Kreg fasteners state..."Will work in treated lumber,"...yet that is very misleading, for what I know of it...

Yes, it will work with treat lumber...true!? However , "BlueKote" does not meet ACQ approval even though many "think" it does based on manufacture descriptions or "it will work." There is some confusion there for sure...???

Further, Kreg manufacturing has no approved fastener for structural applications (aka: load bearing structural diaphragm framed walls, roofs, floors, ect.) at this time. Kreg manufacture does not allow, condone or support any structural applications for any of their "Kreg system of fasteners." I would be glad to know that something has recently been changed, as would several PE I work with, because such a change would have merit compared to the more expensive "industrial versions" out there like the Kreg system...

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...Third, why can't framing be considered fine wood working?
There is framing that subscribes to the "get it within 1/4"....NAIL IT!? and
there is the kind of framing I do. Take your time and make it fit. ...
Your not going to get me to disagree with that...

I guess I failed in my other post to make that point...Carpentry and Fine-woodworking...WAS!!!...at one time...very much the same thing. I personally think it should be again.

Each generation has the leeway to (of course) redefine things to fit there sensibilities. Just like "framing" at one time did not mean "2x sticks" was the term used ubiquitously used for what I do for a living...Now we call it "timber framing"...??!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by justdraftn View Post
...Consider the west knee wall, because it would be the only lateral strength
to that wall, I embedded a cross brace into it. This became a lost procedure
w/the advent of plywood. It proved to be very valuable. ...
I like it...unfortunely if using the Kreg system, I am affraid it will not meet IBC or and PE standards for a structural load as those fasteners them make will not take either cycle loads or withstand the durability requirements subjected to such fasteners...

Again, if you have data to the contrary, I would love to see it. It would save a lot of money compared to the $20 a screw I have to spend sometimes for such loads...

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Originally Posted by justdraftn View Post
...Fine cabinet work....???? Fine wood work....???? .....what?????
Last, I'm a big fan of getting out of the box. ...
Good for you...!!!

I've always lived with there being "no box."

"...To possess an open mind...is to possess a key to many doors...or the ability to create doors where there where none before..."
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post #22 of 54 Old 03-21-2019, 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Jay C. White Cloud View Post
You are welcome!

and you made me look up YMMV...LMAO!!!...I liked that one...



Could you expand on that more for me please from your perspective?

This is what I know of it from experience, the PE I work with, and knowledge of the topic.

I went back an looked, still can't really tell, so may well be mistake? It looked like some of the wood is ACQ (aka treated lumber.) Several of Kreg fasteners state..."Will work in treated lumber,"...yet that is very misleading, for what I know of it...

Yes, it will work with treat lumber...true!? However , "BlueKote" does not meet ACQ approval even though many "think" it does based on manufacture descriptions or "it will work." There is some confusion there for sure...???

Further, Kreg manufacturing has no approved fastener for structural applications (aka: load bearing structural diaphragm framed walls, roofs, floors, ect.) at this time. Kreg manufacture does not allow, condone or support any structural applications for any of their "Kreg system of fasteners." I would be glad to know that something has recently been changed, as would several PE I work with, because such a change would have merit compared to the more expensive "industrial versions" out there like the Kreg system...



Your not going to get me to disagree with that...

I guess I failed in my other post to make that point...Carpentry and Fine-woodworking...WAS!!!...at one time...very much the same thing. I personally think it should be again.

Each generation has the leeway to (of course) redefine things to fit there sensibilities. Just like "framing" at one time did not mean "2x sticks" was the term used ubiquitously used for what I do for a living...Now we call it "timber framing"...??!!



I like it...unfortunely if using the Kreg system, I am affraid it will not meet IBC or and PE standards for a structural load as those fasteners them make will not take either cycle loads or withstand the durability requirements subjected to such fasteners...

Again, if you have data to the contrary, I would love to see it. It would save a lot of money compared to the $20 a screw I have to spend sometimes for such loads...



Good for you...!!!

I've always lived with there being "no box."

"...To possess an open mind...is to possess a key to many doors...or the ability to create doors where there where none before..."
It's a greenhouse. No lives are in danger.
In search of tips on how to get to the next level of woodworking-img_8120.jpg
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post #23 of 54 Old 03-21-2019, 10:16 PM
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Quote:
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It's a greenhouse. No lives are in danger...
...Agreed...!!!

Besides, don't get me wrong, I think a lot of IBC (and related Code) is just plan silly, but I have to "play the game" since I work it that world...It can be really frustrating sometimes to say the least. Like you, I live..."outside the box"...so when a building inspector sees a timber frame house sitting on stone and not concrete the usually "freak out" and start mumbling incoherently...LMAO...!!!...

By the way...that Greenhouse is exquisite...WELL DONE!!!
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post #24 of 54 Old 03-21-2019, 10:41 PM
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We are quite far adrift from the OP's request

Some tips on how to raise your skill level:
Pick a category: Furniture
Pick a piece from that: Chair
Pick a style or designer of that: Tage Frid
Look at examples and research the construction:
https://www.popularwoodworking.com/a...-of-tage-frid/


https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/15...14135438a64b5a


Learn what you can from You Tube:



Get your wood and acclimate to the shop and start your project!

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
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post #25 of 54 Old 03-21-2019, 10:51 PM
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Using that approach ^

Pick a category: Workbench

Pick a design: Roubo
Get some plans or draw your own:
https://www.fine-tools.com/roubo-hobelbank.html



Learn from You Tube:


Buy the hardware: https://www.highlandwoodworking.com/...-supplies.aspx


Take out a home equity loan: $$$$$$


Acquire the wood, acclimate it and start building.

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
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post #26 of 54 Old 03-22-2019, 10:45 AM
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My advice to you (and my ambition for myself) would be to look at more designs and above all, DRAW MORE. Its way easier to do this stuff on paper than in the shop, and you can see what you'll end up with before you ever turn on the saw.

So often it seems, you see projects with beautifully figured wood, technically masterful joints and shimmering lustrous finishes – but the pieces, overall, are as ugly as a mud fence, with no sense of proportion or balance or elegance or grace, let alone engineering or architectural soundness.

To me, that's what's missing more often than anything else, and what I hope to improve in my own work...
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post #27 of 54 Old 03-22-2019, 01:43 PM
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My advice would be to go to the library and study what some of the legitimate authors with a credible background have to say, that will give you the basics to sort through the nonsense that is irresponsibly published on the web, particularly through Youtube.

Beware of the advice you get online, much of it, as my Dad would say, is coming from those talking through their hats. There are no filters on the internet, no editors to verify an article and no feeling of responsibility for your safety or the time and money you spend building something doomed to failure.

Today it is entirely possible to throw out a bogus theory, and verify it with multiple web links or videos.

There was a time when there was a network of publishers, we policed ourselves, if we gave bad advice we would be made aware, the article would be corrected, no hissy fits, no argument, just a thanks for the heads up.
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Wise men speak because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something -Plato

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post #28 of 54 Old 03-22-2019, 01:50 PM
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So, based on your statement ......

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Originally Posted by FrankC View Post
My advice would be to go to the library and study what some of the legitimate authors with a credible background have to say, that will give you the basics to sort through the nonsense that is irresponsibly published on the web, particularly through Youtube.

Beware of the advice you get online, much of it, as my Dad would say, is coming from those talking through their hats. There are no filters on the internet, no editors to verify an article and no feeling of responsibility for your safety or the time and money you spend building something doomed to failure.

Today it is entirely possible to throw out a bogus theory, and verify it with multiple web links or videos.

There was a time when there was a network of publishers, we policed ourselves, if we gave bad advice we would be made aware, the article would be corrected, no hissy fits, no argument, just a thanks for the heads up.

Does that include your own advice, as well as the other members of this forum, or are you just "talking through your hat?" That's a pretty broad and "incriminating" statement, while I'm sure it's well meant, I could take it personally .... just sayin'
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The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
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post #29 of 54 Old 03-22-2019, 02:36 PM
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If anyone takes what I said personally, that is their problem, not mine.

How many times do we see posts about harvest table woes that were built following the instructions on a website or Youtube?

How often do you hear someone in this forum admitting they were mistaken instead of desperately trying to prove they were right?

It is a matter of being responsible, egos need to be put aside, are we here to help or to boost our post count?
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Wise men speak because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something -Plato

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post #30 of 54 Old 03-22-2019, 03:31 PM
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You are correct ...

What we need are the Thought Police to monitor the incorrect replies, correct the typos, mispunctuation, spelling errors, faulty logic, incorrect applications of physics and chemical science since we can't rely on anything that is not proven science and may be considered "opinion". Any volunteers ......







I can assure you that I for one, do NOT post "garbage" to increase my post count, a bit of sarcasm or humor now and then possibly....

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
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post #31 of 54 Old 03-22-2019, 03:52 PM
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What an interesting discussion. It definitely set me to thinking. I suppose that most of us will align ourselves into one of the three most prevalent camps of fine, accurate, and git-er-done!


I consider fine woodworking to be very close to, if not complete heirloom or museum quality; the type of furniture or piece that one will pass down to their next generation. It will start with pleasing to the eye designs and lines (which in itself can be somewhat subjective). It will be constructed of high quality materials befitting the design and purpose. It will employ tight joinery using techniques that indicate the ultra advanced skillset of the maker. And it will possess a finish of some type that enhances the craftsmanship of the artist. Notice that I said artist. Very fine wood mastery is a form of art. No corner will be cut and no blemish will be accepted. My definition of fine woodworking requires a master set of eye and tool skills. Time and money have no meaning; perfection is the only driver.


Fine joinery can encompass myriad styles, techniques, methods, finishes and materials. I would speculate that many, if not most of us try to practice fine joinery. We do try to design and build our projects to a standard that is PRACTICAL and within our skillset. We use decent materials if we can find them, and we make the best use of so-so materials if good stuff is not available. We take a bit of extra time to insure that our pieces and parts fit together (rather) well, and we finish our completed work with a very nice (decent) finish. This practice balances time (and money) spent, mastery of the tools, and quality/ mistake control. The project may not be perfect, but folks may never notice the flaw(s) that we know are there.


Carpentry, framing and trimming usually does not warrant the n-th detail that I consider "fine". That is not to say that carpenters simply slap stuff together. Oh no, they can be masters of the craft in their own right. But they also know what needs to be "just so" and what needs to just "get done".They are often relegated to lesser quality materials (a 2x4 will never befit fine woodworking). Most of their work will either be covered up or at least left unfinished. Time is money, or time is time. I'd rather be on the golf course than building my deck. My deck will look nice, but there won't be a single mortise and tenon in it!


I believe there is a time and place for all levels of wood craft. Some of us will rise to the elite craftsmanship level, some of us will practice the best joinery we can muster, and some of us will happily just make sawdust. Most all of us will likely change our course from time to time depending on the needs of the project at hand. I know I do this quite often. I have a couple of Craig pocket jigs; wouldn't be without them; they hold all my kitchen cabinet face frames together. I built my house with an old hand- me- down framing square, level, and claw hammer. Turned out pretty well if you ask me! And then I used all the skills I had in me, and then some to build the War Wagon an heirloom quality corner cabinet. I may never do a project that detailed again, but it will pass down the line when we expire.


It's been a heckufalotoffun hobby for me thus far!


Cheers,
Mark
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Another $000,000,000.02 worth of advice,
Mark
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post #32 of 54 Old 03-22-2019, 03:55 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woodnthings View Post
Some tips on how to raise your skill level:
Pick a category: Furniture
Pick a piece from that: Chair
Pick a style or designer of that: Tage Frid
Look at examples and research the construction:
https://www.popularwoodworking.com/a...-of-tage-frid/


https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/15...14135438a64b5a


Learn what you can from You Tube:



Get your wood and acclimate to the shop and start your project!

Back on track! thank you! ha.

I did purchase plans to build a Roubu bench (from one of my YouTube favorites.. im ok with supporting them.. even though he gets a ton of free stuff now!). Im just waiting until I get my bandsaw. when I get that, I need to completely overhaul my shop layout. So once that happens, a bench is my next project.

Does anyone have and specific book suggestions? I was thinking of looking for one that is all about joints, but others would be more than welcome!

Does anyone think SketchUp would be considered a mandatory program in the design phase, or can I stick to my "classic"" pencil and paper?
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post #33 of 54 Old 03-22-2019, 03:59 PM
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Funny you should ask about a book ...

I just got this in the mail today and it's awesome, very complete:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/15...?ie=UTF8&psc=1



The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
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post #34 of 54 Old 03-22-2019, 09:17 PM
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...Does anyone think SketchUp would be considered a mandatory program in the design phase, or can I stick to my "classic"" pencil and paper?
Sketchup (or CAD) in general is a "great tool" no more or less...It saves time in looking at thing in "3D." If working in a professional capacity, then we typically have a "professional version" and can do bit more with it...

What's missing today?

"Classic pencil and paper" skill sets!!!! So, by all means stick to them if they work for you...CAD is a nice tool also, but so many have lost the ability to just..."DRAW"...and think graphically well...

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...Does anyone have and specific book suggestions? I was thinking of looking for one that is all about joints, but others would be more than welcome!...
There are many I would recommend once I know someone better and their style of work...

For your current pending project, I couldn't recommend Landis's book more. It is both comprehensive and a "good read" that you will find going back to just for pleasure. It's actually open on my work bench now for a "tea break."

"The Workbench Book: A Craftsman's Guide to Workbenches for Every Type of Woodworking," by Scott Landis

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post #35 of 54 Old 03-23-2019, 11:31 AM
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This great book gives you the designs of most types of common furniture. The exploded views show you how every kind of furniture is made and assembled, down to the joinery. The drawings are amazing in both clarity and the level of detail at the same time. This book is good for non-woodworkers who see a piece of furniture and wonder how it goes together. Highly recommended:

Illustrated Cabinetmaking: How to Design and Construct Furniture That Works
by Bill Hylton
ISBN: 978-1-56523-369-0
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post #36 of 54 Old 03-23-2019, 02:41 PM
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How to Spell Cat

First method:

Learn the alphabet and study phonetics.

Write C A T

Second method:

To make first letter draw half circle with opening to right hand side.

To make second letter draw two angled lines meeting at top, connect center points of the two lines.

To make third letter draw vertical line, draw horizontal line across top of vertical line.
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post #37 of 54 Old 03-23-2019, 02:55 PM
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Really?

I don't think spelling CAT was the OP's question, nor is it any significant part of wood working skills, tools or a machine. So, what's your point ... post count?


This wasn't the least bit helpful .... JMHO.

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
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post #38 of 54 Old 03-23-2019, 03:00 PM
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Sorry it went over your head.
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Wise men speak because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something -Plato

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post #39 of 54 Old 03-23-2019, 06:53 PM
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Arrow Oh, don't even go there ....

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankC View Post
Sorry it went over your head.

Why are you hijacking this thread and making it about me .... ?

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)

Last edited by woodnthings; 03-23-2019 at 06:55 PM.
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post #40 of 54 Old 03-23-2019, 07:35 PM
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All FrankC is trying to say with some "dry humor"..or...at least what I'm taking from his wisdom in such few words is...Don't over think woodworking. There or many ways of doing it well...and expanding your skills and/or style of the craft...
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