In search of tips on how to get to the next level of woodworking - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
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post #1 of 54 Old 03-20-2019, 07:52 PM Thread Starter
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I've been building pretty simple furniture and cutting boards for about a year now and trying to elevate my work with more complex joinery and skills. I currently use mostly pocket holes as they are quick and easy. My friend recently sent me a picture of a shelf he's working on that includes dovetails (router jig) and through mortis/tenon joints. This is the stuff I want to get into, and seeing him do it has really put me in a defeated mood, since he's been doing this less time than I.

How do y'all come up with designs? When do you decide to make a side table with shelves vs a hanging shelf? Do you make things just to sell on sites like Etsy? Do you make things only for friends and family?

I feel like if I had more requests for items, it would force me to practice these things. The only problem is that currently the things im asked to make for friends and family are simple shelves or cubby type box units.

I love watching Jay Bates on YouTube, specifically his dovetailed drawer/box. Is that something you guys would just build for yourself?

I have all the tools I would need, other than a good band saw (have a skil benchtop).

I have been thinking about building a hand tool wall storage chest, and think that would be a good place to practice dovetails. But if I continue to make stuff for my garage, my wife will never let me buy more wood (if I'm not getting some $$ in return). But even something like that wouldn't be great practice as the carcass would be most likely plywood, and I don't know where I would even put dovetails into the project.

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post #2 of 54 Old 03-20-2019, 08:42 PM
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If you want to bring yourself up to the next level with woodworking put the pockethole jig away. It's been turned into a shortcut that is giving a bloody nose to the art of woodworking. It's fine for cabinet faceframes which it was developed for but I would leave it at that.

The best way to come up with a challenging new project would be to find something you want or need that appears slightly above your skill level. The thing to do is not look at the project as a whole but it's individual parts and that should make it a lot simpler. Then we are all here for you if you get in trouble. Ask a lot of questions.
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post #3 of 54 Old 03-20-2019, 09:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
If you want to bring yourself up to the next level with woodworking put the pockethole jig away. It's been turned into a shortcut that is giving a bloody nose to the art of woodworking. It's fine for cabinet faceframes which it was developed for but I would leave it at that.

I have to disagree w/you on the use of a pockethole jig.
I built a greenhouse last summer. All 2x6 construction.
I didn't want bang the beam and rafters together w/nails. Not enough strength.
...so, I screwed it all w/3" treated pocket screws.
It was awesome to see the pieces get sucked together as the screws set.

In search of tips on how to get to the next level of woodworking-img_7728.jpg

In search of tips on how to get to the next level of woodworking-img_7799.jpg

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post #4 of 54 Old 03-20-2019, 10:00 PM
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apples and bananas ....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
If you want to bring yourself up to the next level with woodworking put the pockethole jig away. It's been turned into a shortcut that is giving a bloody nose to the art of woodworking. It's fine for cabinet faceframes which it was developed for but I would leave it at that.

The best way to come up with a challenging new project would be to find something you want or need that appears slightly above your skill level. The thing to do is not look at the project as a whole but it's individual parts and that should make it a lot simpler. Then we are all here for you if you get in trouble. Ask a lot of questions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justdraftn View Post
I have to disagree w/you on the use of a pockethole jig.
I built a greenhouse last summer. All 2x6 construction.
I didn't want bang the beam and rafters together w/nails. Not enough strength.
...so, I screwed it all w/3" treated pocket screws.
It was awesome to see the pieces get sucked together as the screws set.

House framing and decks and green houses are not Fine Woodworking, different materials, different tools, different methods, etc. Yes, wood is wood and all that, but you don't make dovetail joints on your green house. You might use mortise and tenons on a Timberframe, but that's also not Fine Woodworking, however some methods do overlap.



The Kreg joinery has its place, and it can be used by any and all who choose that method, but it's not Fine Woodworking. Browse the photos in Fine Woodworking magazine and you see what I mean. Steve's comment is trying to distinguish between construction methods and woodworking in the finest sense..... unless I'm missing something?
Nice work on the green house BTW!

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
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post #5 of 54 Old 03-20-2019, 10:04 PM Thread Starter
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Im not opposed to pocket holes, I just want more, and better (visually and/or structurally). I Have built out buildings/shops in the past and am comfortable with that type of construction. I am trying to hone my finer woodworking skills
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post #6 of 54 Old 03-20-2019, 10:15 PM
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Sometimes a project gets very challenging .....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhaugle View Post
Im not opposed to pocket holes, I just want more, and better (visually and/or structurally). I Have built out buildings/shops in the past and am comfortable with that type of construction. I am trying to hone my finer woodworking skills

When I realized that my beautiful Flame Box Elder had severely cupped, I thought "Why not go with the flow?" Instead of pitching it out and returning it to the firewood pile I did this:
https://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f2/k...ep-step-13808/


Many of the operations were a first for me and I had to come up with creative and workable solutions. I'm still not sure how I made the curved parting line while the box was still assembled....?

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)

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post #7 of 54 Old 03-20-2019, 10:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justdraftn View Post
I have to disagree w/you on the use of a pockethole jig.
I built a greenhouse last summer. All 2x6 construction.
I didn't want bang the beam and rafters together w/nails. Not enough strength.
...so, I screwed it all w/3" treated pocket screws.
It was awesome to see the pieces get sucked together as the screws set.

Attachment 373327

Attachment 373329

Attachment 373325

Attachment 373331
Woodenthings is correct, my comments on the kreg jig was in reference to a furniture class of woodworking.
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post #8 of 54 Old 03-20-2019, 11:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woodnthings View Post
...House framing and decks and green houses are not Fine Woodworking, different materials, different tools, different methods, etc...


I'm not sure if the Green Brothers that started the "Craftsman Movement" in furniture and architecture (et al) could (or would?) agree with that statement at all...???

Could we perhaps agree that is (at best) an opinion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by woodnthings View Post
... Yes, wood is wood and all that, but you don't make dovetail joints on your green house. ...
I don't believe I can locate the pictures (aka pre internet day) but sorry...Yes, some do use dovetails and related joinery in architecture like greenhouses...some even do it in materials besides wood...like stone...


Quote:
Originally Posted by woodnthings View Post
...You might use mortise and tenons on a Timberframe, but that's also not Fine Woodworking, however some methods do overlap. ...
Perhaps again...???...opinion and with a cultural bias (perhaps) added as well?

As a working Timberwright I have had my work and that of collegues from several cultures often referenced as "fine woodworking," so I'm not sure that is even an accurate opinion to have...???

I can understand it if referencing the likes of the "average" today being "pooped out" by CNC machines or a basic "barn frame." Yet, even many of the barn frames I have seen and/or restored (Dutch, Cantilever, Four Bay, etc) are very much "fine" in all manner and way if one actually considers them and looks closely enough.

Not too long ago I got the privilege of seeing one that was 100% select grade Black Walnut with beautiful Cheery braces and some rather fine timber frame joinery as well. All of it in hand hewn wood and excellent joinery as well. I'm not sure it would (or could) be called even that "rustic" though it was the exception not the rule for the area it was compared to more modern "barns"...to be sure...

Quote:
Originally Posted by woodnthings View Post
....The Kreg joinery has its place, and it can be used by any and all who choose that method, but it's not Fine Woodworking...
That too might (?) be an opinion...but in this day and age of "YouTube" woodworking and the "world wide web" it seems that things are getting redefined...???...

I could not agree more...screws are not..."fine woodworking,"...but I will own that is a bias I have...

Tosa Tomo Designs
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post #9 of 54 Old 03-20-2019, 11:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justdraftn View Post
I have to disagree w/you on the use of a pockethole jig...I built a greenhouse last summer. All 2x6 construction...I didn't want bang the beam and rafters together w/nails. Not enough strength.
...so, I screwed it all w/3" treated pocket screws...It was awesome to see the pieces get sucked together as the screws set...
I can admire this work and craft (and I do!) for sure, and it looks like you did a very good job of it...

However, I can almost guarantee that most P.E. (mine included I know for a fact) would not approve those connections for a number of reasons...unless (???)...the fasteners employed where "structurally approved" for moment connections, uplift and related demands. If they are, you did an exceptional job of "repurposing" a jig and using it well...but still out of context.

Again, I really admire the craft I can see in that work...to be sure!!!

However, others (with little to no experience in building) see things like this and think it is..."good practice"...in architecture to do similar. That is leading to all kinds of issues out in the world currently. "Pocket Jigs" and countless other things in architecture and joinery systems are being taken..."out of context"...and used where perhaps (most likely actually) is really a bad idea...

I'm not sure......if this was an idea you had to use them this way, but I can share that I have already seen, or had referenced issues with similar builds of larger structures with this system. Many are having issues, because of the "less experienced" trying to emulate something..."they think"...is a good idea and not really doing it as well, and/or not using the correct hardware...

I apologize ahead of time, as I don't like "raining" down on anyone's attempt at being creative. Nevertheless, I would be remiss if I didn't at least share a warning that some things may not be as "safe" to do as they seem...

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post #10 of 54 Old 03-21-2019, 12:37 AM
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After disagreeing with my entire post ....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay C. White Cloud View Post


I'm not sure if the Green Brothers that started the "Craftsman Movement" in furniture and architecture (et al) could (or would?) agree with that statement at all...???

Could we perhaps agree that is (at best) an opinion?



I don't believe I can locate the pictures (aka pre internet day) but sorry...Yes, some do use dovetails and related joinery in architecture like greenhouses...some even do it in materials besides wood...like stone...




Perhaps again...???...opinion and with a cultural bias (perhaps) added as well?

As a working Timberwright I have had my work and that of collegues from several cultures often referenced as "fine woodworking," so I'm not sure that is even an accurate opinion to have...???

I can understand it if referencing the likes of the "average" today being "pooped out" by CNC machines or a basic "barn frame." Yet, even many of the barn frames I have seen and/or restored (Dutch, Cantilever, Four Bay, etc) are very much "fine" in all manner and way if one actually considers them and looks closely enough.

Not too long ago I got the privilege of seeing one that was 100% select grade Black Walnut with beautiful Cheery braces and some rather fine timber frame joinery as well. All of it in hand hewn wood and excellent joinery as well. I'm not sure it would (or could) be called even that "rustic" though it was the exception not the rule for the area it was compared to more modern "barns"...to be sure...



That too might (?) be an opinion...but in this day and age of "YouTube" woodworking and the "world wide web" it seems that things are getting redefined...???...

I could not agree more...screws are not..."fine woodworking,"...but I will own that is a bias I have...
You disagreed with the entire content of my post with the one final exception, so can we assume that the use of the Kreg Jig in construction materials constitutes raising woodworking to a higher level? If so, I'm confused. Yes, those are my "opinions" just as your statements are your "opinions". That's what we do do here, offer our opinions. Sometime we provide visual examples like You Tube videos when appropriate. So I did a search and couldn't find any DIY greenhouses with dovetail joints as you suggest. Maybe I missed that one?
https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...diy+greenhouse
In fact quite a few are made from metal and PVC with little or no wood.



If you want to equate Timberframing with Fine Woodworking that's Fine with me. As I stated the methods and joinery do overlap.

I don't find any Kreg joinery in the Timberframes I've seen, however and that was my point ... apples and bananas. There won't be any in the Chippendale, Shaker, Greene and Greene and other period furniture makers. Todays IKEA and other contemperay styles may use some, but most is the cam lock quick connect type. Greene is spelled with an "e" on the end FYI.



Quoting my post no. 6 above for some actual helpful advice and an example:


Sometimes a project gets very challenging .....
When I realized that my beautiful Flame Box Elder had severely cupped, I thought "Why not go with the flow?" Instead of pitching it out and returning it to the firewood pile I did this:
https://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f2/k...ep-step-13808/


Routing a curved rabbet:





Many of the operations were a first for me and I had to come up with creative and workable solutions. I'm still not sure how I made the curved parting line while the box was still assembled....?
Scurvy and justdraftn like this.

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)

Last edited by woodnthings; 03-21-2019 at 12:45 AM.
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post #11 of 54 Old 03-21-2019, 01:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhaugle View Post
cubby type box units
you could build the next set with sliding tapered dovetails.
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post #12 of 54 Old 03-21-2019, 02:05 AM
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Start by adding some of the traditional joints to your simple projects and work your way up.

http://www.sawdustmaking.com/Joints/joints.html

“Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth.”
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post #13 of 54 Old 03-21-2019, 07:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
If you want to bring yourself up to the next level with woodworking put the pockethole jig away. It's been turned into a shortcut that is giving a bloody nose to the art of woodworking. It's fine for cabinet faceframes which it was developed for but I would leave it at that.

The best way to come up with a challenging new project would be to find something you want or need that appears slightly above your skill level. The thing to do is not look at the project as a whole but it's individual parts and that should make it a lot simpler. Then we are all here for you if you get in trouble. Ask a lot of questions.

Excellent suggestion.


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post #14 of 54 Old 03-21-2019, 07:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justdraftn View Post
I have to disagree w/you on the use of a pockethole jig.
I built a greenhouse last summer. All 2x6 construction.
I didn't want bang the beam and rafters together w/nails. Not enough strength.
...so, I screwed it all w/3" treated pocket screws.
It was awesome to see the pieces get sucked together as the screws set.

Attachment 373327

Attachment 373329

Attachment 373325

Attachment 373331

You are writing about carpentry. Steve was writing about building furniture.


George
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post #15 of 54 Old 03-21-2019, 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by woodnthings View Post
Nice work on the green house BTW!
Thank you!

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Originally Posted by Jay C. White Cloud View Post
I can admire this work and craft (and I do!) for sure, and it looks like you did a very good job of it...However, I can almost guarantee that most P.E. (mine included I know for a fact) would not approve those connections for a number of reasons...unless (???)...the fasteners employed where "structurally approved" for moment connections, uplift and related demands. If they are, you did an exceptional job of "repurposing" a jig and using it well...but still out of context.
Again, I really admire the craft I can see in that work...to be sure!!!
Thank you! ....it's just a greenhouse. YMMV

A great debate.
First, Kreg BlueKote screws are made specifically for what I used them for.
Second, screwing rather than nailing the rafters and beam is much stronger
than toe nailing them in w/#16 sinkers. Aesthetically much more pleasing......
As an act of labor.....very pleasing.
Third, why can't framing be considered fine wood working?
There is framing that subscribes to the "get it within 1/4"....NAIL IT!? and
there is the kind of framing I do. Take your time and make it fit.
Consider the west knee wall, because it would be the only lateral strength
to that wall, I embedded a cross brace into it. This became a lost procedure
w/the advent of plywood. It proved to be very valuable.
In search of tips on how to get to the next level of woodworking-img_7714.jpg

Fine cabinet work....???? Fine wood work....???? .....what?????
Last, I'm a big fan of getting out of the box.
Discuss.
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post #16 of 54 Old 03-21-2019, 09:15 AM
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It's just not typically done ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by justdraftn View Post
Thank you!


Thank you! ....it's just a greenhouse. YMMV

A great debate.
First, Kreg BlueKote screws are made specifically for what I used them for.
Second, screwing rather than nailing the rafters and beam is much stronger
than toe nailing them in w/#16 sinkers. Aesthetically much more pleasing......
As an act of labor.....very pleasing.
Third, why can't framing be considered fine wood working?
There is framing that subscribes to the "get it within 1/4"....NAIL IT!? and
there is the kind of framing I do. Take your time and make it fit.

Consider the west knee wall, because it would be the only lateral strength
to that wall, I embedded a cross brace into it. This became a lost procedure
w/the advent of plywood. It proved to be very valuable.
Attachment 373339

Fine cabinet work....???? Fine wood work....???? .....what?????
Last, I'm a big fan of getting out of the box.
Discuss.

Beautiful and accurate craftsmanship is always appreciated, whether it's in a piece of furniture to be seen by all, or hidden behind the sheathing on a structure. When a "craftsman" builds a structure, you can almost guarantee the joints will be precise and well done and that enough time was taken in the process to make it so. When a framing carpenter builds a structure, he is "on the clock" and every movement is part of the "git r done" overall scheme. When you log in to this forum, you'll find:
https://www.woodworkingtalk.com/forum.php

The different sub topics are there to define the different skill sets and make things easier to locate. There is some overlap of course.

Take finish carpentry for example. Installing crown molding is not something the average woodworker does on a daily basis, if at all. The same goes for building a circular stairway. I could never do it. But the skills and methods do overlap, lay out and measuring, precise cutting, and the "math" ...etc.


The same for metal working. There are lathe hands, mill wrights, CNC operators, welders in the various metals, sheet metal work, and yes a good metal worker can do it all. However, a certified welder may not be able to run a Bridgeport or an engine lathe.


You get my point. I appreciate your "attention" to detail and wanting the finished result to look "professional", and it certainly does. It would be interesting to see what you do when it comes to more "refined" projects, like cabinets, furniture, small chests, etc. Best to Ya!

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)

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post #17 of 54 Old 03-21-2019, 09:25 AM
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OP when I was in your shoes, I subscribed to a woodworking magazine for a couple of years.


they will - give you project ideas, help you visualize the components as they are needed, help you learn how to make a cut list, provide tips, tool usage, etc... and they will span varying degrees of capabilities from simple to more complex.
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post #18 of 54 Old 03-21-2019, 09:36 AM
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My tip to getting to the next level of Woodworking is to not get comfortable doing the same thing over and over. Plan every new project to introduce you to at least one new technique that you’ve never tried before. Always challenge yourself to learn something new, or learn a new tool, or learn a new technique, or even trying to build out of different materials then you are normally use.

Learn the basics building things for your workroom. Start with a simple bench or outfeed table for your tablesaw. Add drawers next time. Once you get comfortable making drawers one way, do it a different way next time.

Try new things, add new techniques, learn how to use a few new tools, and keep building. You’ll end up at the next level without even noticing.


In woodworking there is always more then one way to accomplish something.
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post #19 of 54 Old 03-21-2019, 06:02 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks every one. I do have a subscription to WOOD magazine, but looking at getting one to Modern Woodworking too.. More YouTube videos to watch on sliding dovetails!
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post #20 of 54 Old 03-21-2019, 07:35 PM
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... Greene is spelled with an "e" on the end FYI....
A typo my Grandmother will not let me forget, I'm sure...!!!...They are related to her side of the family...My Uncle, she and the Brothers are bound to give me heck someday for that one...LOL

The greenhouse I reference I helped design and build, as a "respectful bow" to one from the Victorian age. It has drop in and let in dovetail. Pre "YouTube"...

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