Putting up DC pipe in shop... - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
 
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post #1 of 17 Old 01-03-2011, 10:17 PM Thread Starter
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Putting up DC pipe in shop...

#1 on our post-Christmas list is to get the DC working more efficiently and easily, with less hose changes to use a device. Building the Thien cyclone separator was a good start, and now I'm putting up 4" DWV pipe so I can keep the DC in the closet, minimizing noise and mess.

A couple questions for the knowledgeable masses:

1) Does it matter if I use a 90 deg fitting vs. 2 45 deg fittings? Will it *really* matter as to the efficiency of the system?

2) If it doesn't matter, then does that include any lines off the main trunk? My basic layout is a main trunk that goes through the middle of the shop ceiling, and then branches going to the wall and down.

3) Does it make any difference where the blast gate goes? Do I need one as close to the main trunk as possible, and then also one at each device coupling, or is the one near the main trunk useless? Some branches will probably serve 2 or 3 devices (each with blast gates).

4) Some of these connections are really tight with just friction. I'm too uncertain about my final layout to glue at this point, so I've just been using the friction fit. Where the fit was somewhat loose, I wrapped electrical tape around the male fitting until the connection was much tighter. I also thought just friction fit would be a good idea in case of having to clear clogs, but I know I could just put an extra Y on for that, or an end cap. Is friction fit good enough, or will I be leaking air even though I can't feel it?

Thanks for all the help!
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post #2 of 17 Old 01-04-2011, 01:13 AM
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Use two 45's. It will help the air flow smoother. If possible place a short length of pipe between the two 45's.
There are two camps on blast gate location. Those that say they should be placed next to the main trunk line and those that don't think it matters. Mine are centrally located in a type of manifold system.
Blast gates don't have to be tight. They will seal themselves once the dust collector is turned on.
Friction fit joints are fine, just tape them.
Here is a link to a site with free software to safe you some money on fittings.
http://www.harderwoods.com/pipe.html

Rick
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post #3 of 17 Old 01-04-2011, 08:28 AM
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Where possible avoid tight turns. If you can use a gently curved hose instead of a 90 or two 45's you will get better airflow. I have blast gates placed as close as possible to each piece of equipment so that I can select DC for the equipment I am using. Having the DC as close to the equipment as possible is also helpful. The shorter the run, the less friction, and the better the airflow. Friction fit or tape works fine, and allows you to move things around. Avoid gluing things up until you are really sure you have everything where you want it to be. I have mounted most of my equipment on casters, including my DC's, as I am finding that best locations for equipment often changes with the job I am doing.

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post #4 of 17 Old 01-04-2011, 10:11 AM Thread Starter
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Great input guys, thanks.

When you say "tape it up", do you mean the kind of taping I'm doing, where I'm adding electrical tape to the pipe nipple so that it's a tighter fit when inserting into the fitting, or are you talking about taping the outside of the joint *after* it's all put together? If the latter, then what kind of tape do you use for that? Just regular cellophane?
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post #5 of 17 Old 01-04-2011, 11:02 AM Thread Starter
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I've actually got lots of short sections of semi-flexible black corrugated pipe that came with my DC and fittings, so I could do that gradual turn as shown on the website you linked (good site, btw).

But I guess then it's a question of which is worse....corrugated interior vs. smooth, or gradual pipe turn vs 2X45deg DWV? I like the idea of using the corrugated as it will save me some $$$ on all the fittings I've had to buy.
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post #6 of 17 Old 01-04-2011, 11:37 AM
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Smooth interior is always superior to corrugated. As far as bends go I'm not sure which would be worse, corrugated hose or two 45's. I do know that placing a short section of straight pipe in between the two 45's is better than placing them directly next to each other. One thing to keep in mind is that the longer the radius the smoother the transition. A long radius made with corrugated pipe adds a lot of little ridges to deflect the air stream. If decision were based solely on appearance I would install the two 45's as opposed to mixing in some hose. Tape the concections after you have slipped them together to seal them shut. Electrical tape would be fine but I personally would use the aluminum faced tape that is found in the duct work section of your local big box store.

Rick
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post #7 of 17 Old 01-04-2011, 12:23 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks Rick, good input. I'm not concerned about looks in the least....mixing corrugated and DWV pipe if anything would make our shop look NICER. Sounds like a gradual turn with 2 DWV 45's is the way to go. Having a smallish DC, I'll do whatever will maximize efficiency.

Kinda funny though since the Thien separator I created has a 90 in it. I guess if I keep that the only 90 in my system I'll be doing good.
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post #8 of 17 Old 01-05-2011, 12:12 PM Thread Starter
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Sooo...any reason not to just use a long sweep 90? It takes up more room, but if I've got room then it seems the best choice between a standard 90 deg, 2 X 45 deg, or a corrugated 90 deg bend.
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post #9 of 17 Old 01-05-2011, 12:52 PM
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No reason to not use it at all. It is definately a better choice than using the flex hose.

Rick
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post #10 of 17 Old 01-05-2011, 01:45 PM Thread Starter
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Hehe..I was just sitting there pondering when it came to me to use sweeps instead. Since they hadn't been mentioned, and they seem a natural fit, I was wondering if I was missing something obvious.
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post #11 of 17 Old 01-05-2011, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beelzerob View Post
#1 on our post-Christmas list is to get the DC working more efficiently and easily, with less hose changes to use a device. Building the Thien cyclone separator was a good start, and now I'm putting up 4" DWV pipe so I can keep the DC in the closet, minimizing noise and mess.

A couple questions for the knowledgeable masses:

1) Does it matter if I use a 90 deg fitting vs. 2 45 deg fittings? Will it *really* matter as to the efficiency of the system?
Yes it does matter. Think of air like cars on a road, the tighter the turn the have to make, the slower they have to go... Use 2 @ 45 deg bends, OR use long radius sweep elbows.


Quote:
2) If it doesn't matter, then does that include any lines off the main trunk? My basic layout is a main trunk that goes through the middle of the shop ceiling, and then branches going to the wall and down.
See answer to #1.

Quote:
3) Does it make any difference where the blast gate goes? Do I need one as close to the main trunk as possible, and then also one at each device coupling, or is the one near the main trunk useless? Some branches will probably serve 2 or 3 devices (each with blast gates).
Now here is where I may be full of hot air. But I have a blast gate at each major branch, so as to not have as much exposed tube to the air... And then again at the tool. My branches wye out at the table saw.. It makes sense to me anyway...

Quote:
4) Some of these connections are really tight with just friction. I'm too uncertain about my final layout to glue at this point, so I've just been using the friction fit. Where the fit was somewhat loose, I wrapped electrical tape around the male fitting until the connection was much tighter. I also thought just friction fit would be a good idea in case of having to clear clogs, but I know I could just put an extra Y on for that, or an end cap. Is friction fit good enough, or will I be leaking air even though I can't feel it?
I did friction fit, and then sealed up my joints with clear adhesive silicone sealant. The difference is night and day. I wouldn't consider friction fit anymore. Too many leaks...

Quote:
Thanks for all the help!
You're welcome...

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post #12 of 17 Old 01-05-2011, 03:57 PM Thread Starter
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Good info, thanks much.

At this point, I'm *very* glad I didn't glue anything since I'm about to take it all down and redo it. I wondered if caulk might not work well. I'll probably go with the metal ducting tape to seal all joints...and caulk if the joint or location doesn't lend itself to that.
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post #13 of 17 Old 01-05-2011, 06:18 PM
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Already covered above

Quote:
Originally Posted by beelzerob View Post
Sooo...any reason not to just use a long sweep 90? It takes up more room, but if I've got room then it seems the best choice between a standard 90 deg, 2 X 45 deg, or a corrugated 90 deg bend.
But I know I read somewhere that 2 45's are better than a 90..
I just can't find the technical loss in percentage....I think it amounts to 10 more feet of pipe length... I donno?
Any way I did find a pretty good write up with lots of sources:
http://home.earthlink.net/~dbhost/dustcollection.html
Wait! that's our guy..dbhost!
bill
BTW
I know I've said/suggested this before, but a separate topic "DUST COLLECTION and CONTROL" would be a great way to separate this advice out from general woodworking and make it more accessible and useful to others....

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)

Last edited by woodnthings; 01-05-2011 at 06:23 PM.
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post #14 of 17 Old 01-05-2011, 08:49 PM Thread Starter
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2 45's better than a 90 sweep?? Of course, when I say sweep, Im talking about something like a ft radius bend. I dunno if actual sweeps are that gradual. I'll be heading to the plumbing store tomorrow to see just how gradual it is.
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post #15 of 17 Old 01-05-2011, 09:15 PM
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I use 2-45's whenever possible, no glue, caulk all seams.

For the drops, I use 4, 1/2" screws to keep the weight from seperating, and caulk.

If you must use a 90, they make large radius PVC fittings.
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post #16 of 17 Old 01-05-2011, 09:28 PM Thread Starter
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I'm working with 9' ceilings, so that long of a corner might be a problem.
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post #17 of 17 Old 01-05-2011, 09:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beelzerob View Post
I'm working with 9' ceilings, so that long of a corner might be a problem.

Yes, I'm showing a 12' ceiling, 9' will still give you plenty of room for a straight between 45's.

Even if you 45ed at 6', how close are you going to stand to the wall?

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