Process of making wood paneling? - Page 2 - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
 14Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
post #21 of 47 Old 04-03-2019, 01:57 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 204
View unburled's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by sonicthewedgehog View Post
I'm wanting to know how the wall paneling shown in the images would be installed today as well as how it actually was installed. If you had to recreate that room using modern tools, how would you do it? In other words, I know how a cope and stick frame and raised panel is made and put together (as in a cabinet door), but I can't understand how that would be put on a wall as in the pictures.

Oh, and I am not looking at imitation, simulated or fake paneling.
You first have to address this, it's a critical factor: in The Craigdarroch Castle, the moulding stands proud of the flat stock (1x4 or similar). Look at the shadows cast onto the flat stock by the proud bead of the moulding.

Below is a crop of a screen grab of this youtube:


The white arrow points to corner where it is obvious that:

1) the moulding is not part of the flat stock
2) the moulding joints are mitered, not coped
3) the moulding is rabbeted for the flat stock


Last edited by unburled; 04-03-2019 at 03:01 PM.
unburled is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #22 of 47 Old 04-03-2019, 02:18 PM
where's my table saw?
 
woodnthings's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: SE, Michigan
Posts: 26,562
View woodnthings's Photo Album My Photos
I'd make it "modular" .....

I would pre-make the individual panels in sizes such that they work out with proper spacing, when attached to the wall. I would NOT cut, fit and attach the separate moldings to a large space, either wall board/drywall or veneer plywood. A proper layout and preplanning will be needed regardless, for the spacing and sizes to be worked out in full scale.
Bob Willing likes this.

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)

Last edited by woodnthings; 04-03-2019 at 03:23 PM.
woodnthings is offline  
post #23 of 47 Old 04-03-2019, 05:14 PM Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
sonicthewedgehog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 7
View sonicthewedgehog's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by unburled View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by sonicthewedgehog View Post
I'm wanting to know how the wall paneling shown in the images would be installed today as well as how it actually was installed. If you had to recreate that room using modern tools, how would you do it? In other words, I know how a cope and stick frame and raised panel is made and put together (as in a cabinet door), but I can't understand how that would be put on a wall as in the pictures.

Oh, and I am not looking at imitation, simulated or fake paneling.
You first have to address this, it's a critical factor: in The Craigdarroch Castle, the moulding stands proud of the flat stock (1x4 or similar). Look at the shadows cast onto the flat stock by the proud bead of the moulding.

Below is a crop of a screen grab of this youtube:


The white arrow points to corner where it is obvious that:

1) the moulding is not part of the flat stock
2) the moulding joints are mitered, not coped
3) the moulding is rabbeted for the flat stock


Yes, the molding stands proud, which is one of the things that threw me about this paneling. In the picture below (on the far left), the molding is clearly proud of the flat stock. So the general process would be

1) rail and stile frames made with cope and stick jointery are made and assembled on the wall
2) Raised panels are made and installed
3) Molding is mitered, rabetted and installed proud of flat stock

Process of making wood paneling?-plan-your-visit1_1554324315566.jpg
sonicthewedgehog is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #24 of 47 Old 04-03-2019, 06:32 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 204
View unburled's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by sonicthewedgehog View Post
1) rail and stile frames made with cope and stick jointery are made and assembled on the wall
2) Raised panels are made and installed
3) Molding is mitered, rabetted and installed proud of flat stock
In my eyes, the only thing certain is that rabbeted mitered moulding is not part of the flat stock grid, nor part of the panels. They don't look like raised panels as in 1800's raised panels that stand proud of everything else.

The flat stock grid might have butt joints. Or to aid alignment, the grid might have groove and tenon joints with a 1/4 x 1/4 dado ripped into the edges and a corresponding stub tenon on the end of the perpendicular piece.

The flat stock gets nailed up first as a uniform grid, say, to within 1/16".

Since the grid is uniform and the since moulding overlaps the flat stock, all umpteen pieces of moulding can be cut in the shop without having to individually fit the pieces up on the scaffolding. This wouldn't be the case if the moulding was purely inset. The rabbet that slips over the flat stock covers up any minor indiscretions.

The moulding may sit flat against the sheathing, in which case it would be rabbeted to slip over the panel. Or there may be a narrow frame of lath between the moulding and the sheathing. The lath would be approximately the same thickness as the edge of the panel, and narrow enough to leave a "rabbet" for the panel to float in.


The lower moulding is nailed up. The panel is slipped down into that rabbet and hand held while the top moulding is nailed up. Then the side mouldings are nailed in place. Then on to the next opening.
woodnthings and shoot summ like this.

Last edited by unburled; 04-03-2019 at 06:37 PM.
unburled is offline  
post #25 of 47 Old 04-03-2019, 10:07 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 25,995
View Steve Neul's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by unburled View Post
In my eyes, the only thing certain is that rabbeted mitered moulding is not part of the flat stock grid, nor part of the panels. They don't look like raised panels as in 1800's raised panels that stand proud of everything else.

The flat stock grid might have butt joints. Or to aid alignment, the grid might have groove and tenon joints with a 1/4 x 1/4 dado ripped into the edges and a corresponding stub tenon on the end of the perpendicular piece.

The flat stock gets nailed up first as a uniform grid, say, to within 1/16".

Since the grid is uniform and the since moulding overlaps the flat stock, all umpteen pieces of moulding can be cut in the shop without having to individually fit the pieces up on the scaffolding. This wouldn't be the case if the moulding was purely inset. The rabbet that slips over the flat stock covers up any minor indiscretions.

The moulding may sit flat against the sheathing, in which case it would be rabbeted to slip over the panel. Or there may be a narrow frame of lath between the moulding and the sheathing. The lath would be approximately the same thickness as the edge of the panel, and narrow enough to leave a "rabbet" for the panel to float in.


The lower moulding is nailed up. The panel is slipped down into that rabbet and hand held while the top moulding is nailed up. Then the side mouldings are nailed in place. Then on to the next opening.
The picture in post 1 is close enough I really believe the wall panel is made with raised panels. The framework doesn't necessarily have to be rabbeted. The panels might just be laid in the openings and trimmed around. The molding might be rabbeted on the back side so that it fits flat on the panel edge and the wood frame around. Kind of like this drawer front. There is just a bunch of different ways a person could make a wall like that. Sometimes the panel is just flat with trim around.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	DF-RPM5041-Maple.jpg
Views:	30
Size:	31.1 KB
ID:	373957  

Steve Neul is offline  
post #26 of 47 Old 04-04-2019, 03:29 AM Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
sonicthewedgehog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 7
View sonicthewedgehog's Photo Album My Photos
I don't suppose anyone could find some construction pictures of this type of wall panelling being installed? It might help in understanding the process better. &#x1f609;
sonicthewedgehog is offline  
post #27 of 47 Old 04-04-2019, 06:49 AM
Smart and Cool
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 1,799
View shoot summ's Photo Album My Photos
shoot summ is online now  
post #28 of 47 Old 04-04-2019, 10:04 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Colorado Springs
Posts: 320
View RogerInColorado's Photo Album My Photos
Here is an approach using MDF. Substitute wood of choice if you aren't going to paint the wall. See some of this guy's other videos for adding molded edges to the panels.

RogerInColorado is offline  
post #29 of 47 Old 04-04-2019, 11:17 PM
Former Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,512
View 35015's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by sonicthewedgehog View Post
I don't suppose anyone could find some construction pictures of this type of wall panelling being installed? It might help in understanding the process better. &#x1f609;
Hi Sonic,

I've been following along, and because you never posted in my direction I just read what is going on...

I am curious though (??) you do seem very interested in this, yet I am still unclear the goal you have?

I, Steve, and a few others (I think?) have alluded to the fact that there are many ways of doing this kind of work, both...modern and tradtional. Steve, I believe (?) has done this quite often and restore vintage forms from what I have gleaned in his post. I too, have a long history in the vintage forms.

As such...there is really good books (which I referenced earlier) but without knowing the final goal set, I don't really understand what direction your wishing to go? Or, is it just discussion of the different systems of making such panels?

I can state that I haven't seen an example yet in any of the links, photos, etc that have not been done traditionally before many centuries ago. Of course those methods are all "hand tool" related alone, and if not accustom to those methods definitely more "time expensive" to learn...as well as...much different materials than MDF outlined in more recent videos of the post thread, which for the modern painted versions of panel systems are the quickest and least expensive to facilitate...

So, again, what is the goal set?

Last edited by 35015; 04-04-2019 at 11:20 PM.
35015 is offline  
post #30 of 47 Old 04-04-2019, 11:30 PM
Former Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,512
View 35015's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerInColorado View Post
...Substitute wood of choice if you aren't going to paint the wall...
Um...plywood...yes...but not just "wood of choice" per se. That would just blow apart in short order if referencing "real wood" as used in actual panel systems and not the contemporary faux methods as outlined in this video...

I'm also confused by the video, from my perspective? I admire the workmanship...for sure...very nice and when painted I think it will be stunning!

However, there is a lot of "testing" and figuring out stuff that is costly to the person doing the work and in the end the project budget as well...

I mean...moving outlets, and in situ placement testing...???...Both contemporary designers and tradtional (for the most part) have done all this before a single speck of sawdust is every made...be it real wood or MDF...

As such, I can admire the "end product" I see in the video, and do think it reflects creativity in aesthetic focus! However, I personally have to give it a...C-...(at best) for outlining the logistical approach in reference to "order of operation" and planing...not something I would ever recommend to a student to learn from regarding this form of paneling nor of the craft a client, or DIYer to follow as...good practice.

Last edited by 35015; 04-04-2019 at 11:41 PM.
35015 is offline  
post #31 of 47 Old 04-05-2019, 01:43 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 204
View unburled's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
The picture in post 1 is close enough I really believe the wall panel is made with raised panels.
My impression is that the face of the shaped panels is in the same plane as the flat-stock grid. Today that is commonly called raised panel. But in the original sense it's not a true raised panel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
The framework doesn't necessarily have to be rabbeted.
Not sure what you mean by framework. You quoted my post but I didn't use that term.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
The panels might just be laid in the openings and trimmed around. The molding might be rabbeted on the back side so that it fits flat on the panel edge and the wood frame around.
Not sure what you are saying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
There is just a bunch of different ways a person could make a wall like that.
Not really, unless you go liberal with "a person" and "like that". There are only a couple of ways working craftsmen would have built the OP's walls or reproduce the OP's walls today and it all hinges on the bead and it standing proud of the flat-stock grid.
unburled is offline  
post #32 of 47 Old 04-05-2019, 08:20 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 25,995
View Steve Neul's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by unburled View Post
My impression is that the face of the shaped panels is in the same plane as the flat-stock grid. Today that is commonly called raised panel. But in the original sense it's not a true raised panel.


Not sure what you mean by framework. You quoted my post but I didn't use that term.



Not sure what you are saying.



Not really, unless you go liberal with "a person" and "like that". There are only a couple of ways working craftsmen would have built the OP's walls or reproduce the OP's walls today and it all hinges on the bead and it standing proud of the flat-stock grid.
You are correct about the raised panels, technically the face of the panel is suppose to be raised above the face of the frame. It wasn't that long ago things have changed. When I got in the business in the 1970's a door panel was 3/4" thick and when it was inserted in the frame it was raised about 3/16". It's when they started using the timesaver sanders so much to sand cabinet doors the face of the panels had to be made in the same plane as the frame.

What I meant about the frame is a person could just put a grid of like 1x4's on the wall and then insert panels between. Then finish it off with trim around the openings. If a person didn't like the raised moldings around the panels they could apply the panels to the wall first and then make a frame with a cabinet door glass frame between. Personally if I were doing it I would rather make up make up the wall in the shop and bring it out in sections so there would be less labor on site. Everything could be sanded and pre-finished prior to the installation. I would hate to sand all of that wood on the wall in someone's house.
35015 likes this.
Steve Neul is offline  
post #33 of 47 Old 04-05-2019, 10:14 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 204
View unburled's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
You are correct about the raised panels, technically the face of the panel is suppose to be raised above the face of the frame. It wasn't that long ago things have changed. When I got in the business in the 1970's a door panel was 3/4" thick and when it was inserted in the frame it was raised about 3/16". It's when they started using the timesaver sanders so much to sand cabinet doors the face of the panels had to be made in the same plane as the frame.
In the late seventies, we had 36" thickness sander. High end rural cabinets. All our face frames went through it. Nosed shelving stock went through it. For our modern raised panel doors, the panel stock was 3/4". The panel front face ended flush with the front of the stiles/rails, and the back face ended flush with back of the stiles/rails. The panels were hogged off on the front and relieved on the back - rabbeted, more or less - all on a table saw, then run through the planer for a frontside scallop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
What I meant about the frame is a person could just put a grid of like 1x4's on the wall and then insert panels between. Then finish it off with trim around the openings.

That's how the OP walls were built, depending on your 'insert panels between. Then finish it off with trim'.

Last edited by unburled; 04-05-2019 at 10:16 PM.
unburled is offline  
post #34 of 47 Old 04-06-2019, 12:50 AM
Former Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,512
View 35015's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by unburled View Post
...That's how the OP walls were built, depending on your 'insert panels between. Then finish it off with trim'...
Hello Unburled,

On this one you may have lost me...???...

"That's how," reads like absolute statement of certainty...???

I'm fairly certain, as a working Historic Restoration practitioner, that none of my in Europe...and North America (including myself)...most certainly...could not...make a statement like that about a period home of the circa date?

Craigdarroch was built, as you stated yourself, in 1890. In 1890, for such estate homes of that cast of society the modalities of construction where original in context. That would indicate the means, methods and materials for such architecture would be traditional hand tools, and approach modalities of working the materials. These original methods of construction for such panels are fairly well outline in a number of text predating its construction and still used today in there restoration, as was the case with Craigdarroch.

I agree it "could be" done many different ways to replicate a "faux" version of it, yet that is not how it was most likely done at all.

"Rules of Work" (and additional guidance) for this time period covering Panels, Architraves, Moldings, Stairs, Doors, Windows and all manner of instillation was still set down by references (still used today for restoration.) These, of course, built upon even earlier systems of work based even more deeply into means, methods and materials of traditional understanding. Some of the most common references (but not limited to them at all) of the time (still used today) for Craigdarroch would have been:

The Carpenter and Joiner's Assistant...
By J. Taylor, 1810

Practice of Architecture...
By Asher Benjamin, 1833

Civil Architecture: A Complete Theoretical and Practical System of Building
By Edward Shaw, 1836

Carpentry and Building, Volume 14
By David Williams, 1892
35015 is offline  
post #35 of 47 Old 04-06-2019, 01:45 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 204
View unburled's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by unburled View Post
In the late seventies, we had 36" thickness sander. High end rural cabinets. All our face frames went through it. Nosed shelving stock went through it. For our modern raised panel doors, the panel stock was 3/4". The panel front face ended flush with the front of the stiles/rails, and the back face ended flush with back of the stiles/rails. The panels were hogged off on the front and relieved on the back - rabbeted, more or less - all on a table saw, then run through the planer for a frontside scallop.

In the late seventies, we had 36" wide thickness sander. High end rural cabinets. All our face frames went through it. Nosed shelving stock went through it. For our 'modern' raised panel doors, the panel stock was 3/4". The panels were hogged off on the front and relieved on the back - rabbeted, more or less - all on a table saw, then run through the planer for a frontside scallop. The finished doors had panels whose front and back faces were in the same planes as the front and backs of the stiles/rails. That is, the finished thickness of the panels was the same as that of the stiles/rails.
unburled is offline  
post #36 of 47 Old 04-06-2019, 09:22 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 25,995
View Steve Neul's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by unburled View Post
In the late seventies, we had 36" thickness sander. High end rural cabinets. All our face frames went through it. Nosed shelving stock went through it. For our modern raised panel doors, the panel stock was 3/4". The panel front face ended flush with the front of the stiles/rails, and the back face ended flush with back of the stiles/rails. The panels were hogged off on the front and relieved on the back - rabbeted, more or less - all on a table saw, then run through the planer for a frontside scallop.




That's how the OP walls were built, depending on your 'insert panels between. Then finish it off with trim'.
In the era around 45 years ago at least in the Dallas area most residential cabinets were done by little shops with less than ten employees. Labor was cheaper then and the timesaver sander was very expensive. I've even worked for shops that used hand held belt sanders to sand cabinet doors. I worked for two others that used a stroke sander but I didn't see a timesaver sander until sometime in the 1980's. This shop was using a stroke sander and making actual raised panels doors. When they brought in a timesaver sander they started making the panels thinner where it was flush with the frame of the door so they could sand the face of the panel at the same time they sanded the entire door. The sander never touched the back of the panels because it fit in a frame. The back side of the panels were sanded before going through the shaper to make the panel raise.

The wall though is a different project which could be built with cabinet door tooling but could also be done in the house piece by piece by a trim carpenter. I have never really worked as a trim carpenter so it kind of rubs me the wrong way. I've always make things like that in the shop and then delivered and installed it. Cabinets or paneling too big to transport you make field joints on it where you clamp the cabinet or paneling together and sand it flat. Once ready to go you remove the clamps and take it to the job site and the parts just slide together like it was built there just like pre-finished flooring does.
Steve Neul is offline  
post #37 of 47 Old 04-07-2019, 03:56 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 204
View unburled's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
The [OP's] wall ... could be built with cabinet door tooling
It could, but working craftsmen of the day (or contemporary) would never have built it that way, unless coerced. It all hinges on the bead. Apart from the flat stock grid, each section is five pieces, one shaped panel and four pieces of moulding. The whole slew could be cut and prefinished before arriving on site.
unburled is offline  
post #38 of 47 Old 04-07-2019, 04:13 AM
Former Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,512
View 35015's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by unburled View Post
...Apart from the flat stock grid, each section is five pieces, one shaped panel and four pieces of moulding. The whole slew could be cut and prefinished before arriving on site.
Your suggesting in 1890 they employed 5 separate pieces of wood to create the panel and its molding for what is in the OP's photo?
35015 is offline  
post #39 of 47 Old 04-07-2019, 07:51 AM
where's my table saw?
 
woodnthings's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: SE, Michigan
Posts: 26,562
View woodnthings's Photo Album My Photos
I would like to know ......

Quote:
Originally Posted by unburled View Post
It could, but working craftsmen of the day (or contemporary) would never have built it that way, unless coerced. It all hinges on the bead. Apart from the flat stock grid, each section is five pieces, one shaped panel and four pieces of moulding. The whole slew could be cut and prefinished before arriving on site.

The molding would have been done on a long length of material using a hand plane then mitered to fit. I doubt if each panel was hand crafted out of a single piece of wood, but I could be wrong. The grain direction would be an issue in my opinion, but I donno, I wasn't there watching ....
I do know it would not be done as a single piece of wood today.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay C. White Cloud View Post
Your suggesting in 1890 they employed 5 separate pieces of wood to create the panel and its molding for what is in the OP's photo?

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
woodnthings is offline  
post #40 of 47 Old 04-07-2019, 09:40 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 25,995
View Steve Neul's Photo Album My Photos
I've worked in shops where the craftsman were allowed to construct a project any way they choose. It was large jobs where each project was an integral part of the overall millwork and while each of us went about the projects very differently the end result ended up with the same appearance. You can't say the millwork shown on post 1 is done any certain way. You would either have to dismantle it or know the techniques of the craftsman that did it to say with any certainty how it was done. Anyway the OP was just interested on how that type of millwork could be reproduced.
35015 likes this.
Steve Neul is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Making wood panels woodklo Joinery 12 03-23-2019 11:11 PM
Sanding drywall compound off of wood paneling luke duke General Woodworking Discussion 9 01-29-2018 10:20 AM
Making wood look like metal? qilton General Woodworking Discussion 7 07-31-2017 11:23 AM
Waterlox over stained wood - pics or advice? morrow95 General Woodworking Discussion 11 07-05-2016 07:14 AM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome