problem with stain - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
 
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post #1 of 17 Old 11-29-2013, 01:50 PM Thread Starter
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problem with stain

My brother-in-law (honestly), is working on some new cabinets for his kitchen and he's running into some staining problems. He's using venir for edging on some of his cabinet bodies built out of melamine. When he stained the venir it appeared to stain fine, this is hard maple by the way, but when he knocked down the first coat of Minwax polyacrylic he now sees streaking in the stain. Even after wiping with mineral spirits. It appears to be unstained areas. He did use a pre stain sealer to help even the color between the venir and hardwood face frames. All Minwax products. I'm attaching some photos would appreciate some advice
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post #2 of 17 Old 11-29-2013, 01:55 PM
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Maple is very prone to blotching, nothing unusual there.
Spraying light coats of dye is the only way I know to get consistent coloring on Maple.

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post #3 of 17 Old 11-29-2013, 04:59 PM Thread Starter
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So what is a good way to proceed now that he has a coat of poly on the wood? Try to sand it down?
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post #4 of 17 Old 11-29-2013, 05:08 PM
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Is the picture of maple veneered to a substrate? If so what did you glue it down with?
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post #5 of 17 Old 11-29-2013, 05:17 PM Thread Starter
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They got it at Rockler, it came aleady fixed to the backing and it has a 3M adhesive on it with peel away backing paper.
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post #6 of 17 Old 11-29-2013, 09:22 PM
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Sand it enough that stain will take then re-stain and use a sanding sealer before finish. Dewaxed shellac would work well here like zinser sealcoat
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post #7 of 17 Old 11-29-2013, 09:49 PM
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In the first post he mentioned a pre-stain conditioner was used.

It is possible the maple took the stain uneven, or that the sanding after the polyacryllic took off the coat of polyacryllic and the stain. Need to sand back to bare wood. I hope the veneer has enough thickness.

I think mdntrdr is the way to go - use a dye instead of a stain and then be very careful of the sanding after the top coat. Perhaps two coats of the topcoat before sanding.
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post #8 of 17 Old 11-29-2013, 10:32 PM
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I'm guessing the sealer did its job too well and restricted the penetration of the stain. I would wipe down to bare wood with lacquer thinner. Use the right color one time with a wipe on oil base stain, or mist with an alcohol (methanol) based dye until the color comes out right. Try on a sample, as adding the topcoat will change the color.






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post #9 of 17 Old 11-29-2013, 11:16 PM
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Originally Posted by blydakid View Post
They got it at Rockler, it came aleady fixed to the backing and it has a 3M adhesive on it with peel away backing paper.
I would get on the horn with Rockler and see what they say.
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post #10 of 17 Old 11-30-2013, 12:05 AM
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What it looks like to me is the wood was stained with an oil stain and not enough drying time was given before putting the water based poly over it. Linseed oil in incompatible with a water based polyurethane and there should be three days to a week drying time depending on the weather before directly putting any water based finish over it. A short cut would be to put a coat of Zinsser sealcoat as a barrier coat over the stain before the poly which would prevent the finish from lifting. If this is the problem then the white is only going to get worst so the finish should be taken off and start over.
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post #11 of 17 Old 11-30-2013, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
What it looks like to me is the wood was stained with an oil stain and not enough drying time was given before putting the water based poly over it. Linseed oil in incompatible with a water based polyurethane and there should be three days to a week drying time depending on the weather before directly putting any water based finish over it. A short cut would be to put a coat of Zinsser sealcoat as a barrier coat over the stain before the poly which would prevent the finish from lifting. If this is the problem then the white is only going to get worst so the finish should be taken off and start over.
I don't know how you do that. You might try a mix of denatured alcohol and lacquer thinner to take finnish off but you sand on it remember the veneer is thinner than G.I. toilet paper!
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post #12 of 17 Old 12-01-2013, 01:24 AM
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I don't know how you do that. You might try a mix of denatured alcohol and lacquer thinner to take finnish off but you sand on it remember the veneer is thinner than G.I. toilet paper!
It's one of those things it would be better to see in person. The picture looks to me like the finish is failing so if that is true all you could do is sand the finish off. If it has normal veneer tape on the edge of it, it should be thick enough to sand. Assuming the veneer was applied with hot melt glue or iron on which is the same thing any solvents would take the veneer off, especially lacquer thinner.
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post #13 of 17 Old 12-01-2013, 04:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blydakid View Post
My brother-in-law (honestly), is working on some new cabinets for his kitchen and he's running into some staining problems. He's using venir for edging on some of his cabinet bodies built out of melamine. When he stained the venir it appeared to stain fine, this is hard maple by the way, but when he knocked down the first coat of Minwax polyacrylic he now sees streaking in the stain. Even after wiping with mineral spirits. It appears to be unstained areas. He did use a pre stain sealer to help even the color between the venir and hardwood face frames. All Minwax products. I'm attaching some photos would appreciate some advice
Classic case of sand through. Now the veneer will not take stain. There are many methods to take care of this depending on whether it's loose shelf... OR, On a prayer, wipe with mineral spirits and see if that fixes the problem temporarily, if so you just have light spots where the sanding occurred. Recoat and you'll be fine.

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post #14 of 17 Old 12-01-2013, 07:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
The picture looks to me like the finish is failing so if that is true all you could do is sand the finish off. If it has normal veneer tape on the edge of it, it should be thick enough to sand. Assuming the veneer was applied with hot melt glue or iron on which is the same thing any solvents would take the veneer off, especially lacquer thinner.
The picture appears that there wasn't sufficient stain penetration. The topcoat was sanded off creating the bare spots. Of all the ways a veneered edge can be glued to a substrate, other than contact cement, solvents would have very little effect on the glue bond failing, including lacquer thinner. Mineral spirits has little effect on WB poly. A damp wipe with lacquer thinner would remove them both without affecting the glue bond.

For the state that the edging is currently in, the easiest fix would be a light scuff sanding with 320x, and then use a gel stain with the color that is acceptable. Try a sample, and include in the test an application of the topcoat, as that will change the appearance.






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post #15 of 17 Old 12-02-2013, 12:26 AM
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The picture appears that there wasn't sufficient stain penetration. The topcoat was sanded off creating the bare spots. Of all the ways a veneered edge can be glued to a substrate, other than contact cement, solvents would have very little effect on the glue bond failing, including lacquer thinner. Mineral spirits has little effect on WB poly. A damp wipe with lacquer thinner would remove them both without affecting the glue bond.

For the state that the edging is currently in, the easiest fix would be a light scuff sanding with 320x, and then use a gel stain with the color that is acceptable. Try a sample, and include in the test an application of the topcoat, as that will change the appearance.










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I don't see it that way. It looks like the finish is failing to adhere to me. Scuff sanding an applying a finish over a finish that is failing isn't going to help.

I take it you've never used lacquer thinner on plywood that has been through a edgebander. Hot melt glue is very much affected by solvents and the iron on veneer tape is worse. Then you run across some veneer tape from time to time that has instructions not to use an oil stain because the mineral spirits can lift the veneer off the paper backer.
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post #16 of 17 Old 12-02-2013, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
I don't see it that way. It looks like the finish is failing to adhere to me. Scuff sanding an applying a finish over a finish that is failing isn't going to help.

I take it you've never used lacquer thinner on plywood that has been through a edgebander. Hot melt glue is very much affected by solvents and the iron on veneer tape is worse. Then you run across some veneer tape from time to time that has instructions not to use an oil stain because the mineral spirits can lift the veneer off the paper backer.
I've always bought wood tape (various types) on 250' rolls. I've never seen any instructions about what not to use with oil stain. I've never had that happen, and I've used a lot of edgebanding. Where there could be a problem, and I'm not saying it conclusively would be, is using soaked rags dripping wet with lacquer thinner on wood tape that was glued with contact cement.

Wood tape that has been stained with an oil base stain will likely not go back to bare wood with sanding, as the penetration goes into the pores. By the time you get that far, you're through the veneer. For problem finishes like this one, it wouldn't matter what the finish was or if it failed at all, to use a gel stain. Gel stain could be applied directly, with good success. It would be beneficial to get a color of stain close to what is desired. Then while testing the color on a sample, apply the topcoat. Most stains will take on a different look when top coated. This regimen should apply to any finishing schedule.






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post #17 of 17 Old 12-04-2013, 11:18 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks to everyone for their help. He was able to lightly sand the areas and reapply stain without any light spots. This time I also got him to wait 3 days prior to applying the polyacrylic. I am guessing it is similar to what cabinetman was saying and the sealer initially did its job too well.
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