Problem installing hidden/european hinge - can I fix it? - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
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post #1 of 15 Old 12-12-2018, 03:29 PM Thread Starter
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Problem installing hidden/european hinge - can I fix it?

Hello,
First time posting here. I did search the forum and Internet and didn't find an answer.

I'm making one of those concealed gun wall art flags for my son. It came time to install the hidden hinges. I used the paper template that came with the hinges. I should have done a test-run first, but didn't. Though I may not have noticed the problem until the putting it together for real anyway.

The problem...
The holes/circles cut into the doors are too close to the edge, so the door sits up about 1/16 to 1/8" too high and away from the edge of the "cabinet" and because of that, when the doors come together in the middle, they won't close because there's no clearance now. I have the hinges adjusted all the way to lower them and it still doesn't fit.

Here are some pictures:

You can see here in the top picture that the "door" doesn't go all the way to cover the "cabinet" - I calculated the door size with it completely covering the frame of the cabinet.
https://www.woodworkingtalk.com/atta...369163&thumb=1

And in the bottom picture, the "doors" touch and won't close because they need a gap in the middle.
https://www.woodworkingtalk.com/atta...369165&thumb=1

Can I just move the holes in the "doors" a little, making it a little oblong to get it further from the edge so it'll close? Or, do I need to completely move them to a different location and make them further from the edge?

I'm thinking I'll have to cover the inside of the door with a fabric or felt to cover the mistakes.

Thanks.
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post #2 of 15 Old 12-12-2018, 09:08 PM
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Can you post photos of the open door with the installed hinges as they are currently installed in the cabinet? Closeups and wide shots, please.

Hopefully the additional photos will help us better understand the problem.

I wonder whether there are two issues. BOTH ARE GUESSES, PENDING MORE PHOTOS!!:
1. Vertical placement of the hinges may be incorrect. The door doesn't line up with the top and bottom of the cabinet. Adjust the attachment points of the hinges on the cabinet.
2. Hinge overlay may be incorrect. Adjust the overlay or replace the hinges with ones that have the correct overlay to fix the issue.
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Last edited by Tool Agnostic; 12-12-2018 at 09:11 PM.
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post #3 of 15 Old 12-12-2018, 11:21 PM
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You might try some different hinges. Some of them have more adjustment than others. Drilling the holes 1/8" from the edge is pretty much a standard for euro hinges.

If you are using screw on hinges which you haven't screwed the hinges on yet you could move the holes by filling them with bondo and then re-drill them. If you have screwed the hinges on already if you start trying to move the hinges the hinges won't stay on the door very long. If the hinges have the knock in dowel pins then there isn't a way to move the hinges without completely putting the hinges in a different place.
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post #4 of 15 Old 12-13-2018, 09:21 AM Thread Starter
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The hinges are Full Overlay Liberty HC1SFC-NP-B1

Here are some pictures requested.

I'm thinking about just re-drilling over the top of the current pocket hole, but further away from the edge another 1/16" - making a bit of an oval shape.
I'll have to fill in the existing screw holes and re-drill.
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post #5 of 15 Old 12-14-2018, 09:27 AM Thread Starter
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Instead of moving the hole 1/16" away from the edge (making a small oval), should I instead fill in the current hole with Durham's water putty or bondo and re-drill after it dries?
There's not much weight on these doors. The heaviest (and with 3 hinges) is probably just 5 pounds or so.
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post #6 of 15 Old 12-14-2018, 07:56 PM
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I am looking at your photos and scratching my head.

You have a full overlay hinge, and it looks like it is adjusted as far as it will go. If it isn't, try turning all of the adjustment screws, to see what they do. See if you can adjust the hinge so the door will fit.

My concern is that if you move the 35 mm hole on the door side, it will interfere with the operation of the door, hanging up on the face of the cabinet. Those hinges are designed for a very specific placement on the door, and that placement ensures that the edge of the door clears the face of the cabinet without scraping as the door is opened or closed.

In case it helps, here are repair kits for your doors:
https://www.rockler.com/35mm-hinge-hole-repair-kit
https://www.rockler.com/hinge-dowel-repair-kit

After considerable thought, I wonder whether the real problem is that the doors are a little too wide for the opening.
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post #7 of 15 Old 12-14-2018, 08:40 PM
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Making the mounting holes a sloppy fit is a bad idea. Much of the strength of a Euro hinge comes from the fit in the 35mm hole. If you followed the instructions, your hinge holes will be located so the door will leave about 1.5mm of the case exposed. The reason is the hinges are assumed to be used on a string of cabinets. Each cabinet will need that 1.5mm to provide the standard 3mm margin. The "fix", re-drill the holes taking into account the hinge design. Make plugs to fill the holes or replace the edge stick of the door. Do a test fit on scrap?
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post #8 of 15 Old 12-14-2018, 10:14 PM Thread Starter
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I made a scrap piece that I'll test tomorrow.
I didn't know there'd be a 1.5mm strip of the "cabinet" showing and planned on it being all covered when I sized the doors. The doors are probably too wide. I don't really want to shave a little on the far edges because the size of those two stripes on the flag will be skinnier than the rest.
I could bevel the edge of the door at the hinge if it needs extra clearance after moving the cups away from the edge further.
I'll figure something out.
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post #9 of 15 Old 12-15-2018, 06:39 AM
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In the grand scheme of things you have bigger problems than fitting the door to the cabinet. Since you have screwed solid wood to a piece of plywood when the solid wood shrinks gaps will develop between the boards. If you glued the boards too you can expect the doors to warp. When working with solid wood you have to allow for wood movement. The solid wood will expand and contract and the plywood because it's made with alternate grain direction of the layers of veneers doesn't expand and contract but a very tiny amount.

To fit the door to the cabinet without trimming the doors you could mortise the hinge into the side of the cabinet. Mark a line where the hinge sits on the cabinet and use a router to do most of it and then finish with a chisel.
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post #10 of 15 Old 12-15-2018, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
[... important comments about wood movement ...]

To fit the door to the cabinet without trimming the doors you could mortise the hinge into the side of the cabinet. Mark a line where the hinge sits on the cabinet and use a router to do most of it and then finish with a chisel.
I like this idea.
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post #11 of 15 Old 12-15-2018, 12:35 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tool Agnostic View Post
I like this idea.
And that's what I ended up doing - sort of...
The entire inside is going to be filled in with Kaizen foam, covering the hinges.

I don't have a router. I don't have much for woodworking tools (I'm more of a car mechanic and tinkerer in metal and mechanical things). I'm barely an amateur at woodworking, and it's not very high on the things I like to do. I like things that don't need the precise detail work because you can see every mistake. I don't know all the "rules" (see above).

I did find a sanding drum I used from a project a couple years ago - that fits in a drill - and sanded down the area where the hinges mount and it's all fitting together for the most part. I may have to sand a little more down on one of the hinges, or use a belt sander to take off a little where 2 doors meet.

Still not finished, but getting there.
Next I need to touch up some paint, add the foam, add the struts for the doors, the magnetic hidden locks, put the back on and attach some wall mounting hardware.
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post #12 of 15 Old 12-17-2018, 11:52 AM Thread Starter
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I brought the flag in from the cold garage (+30F) into the house (+72F). It did expand a bit and the doors rub again. Because of the temp extremes, I can see that there is some contraction/expansion in temp changes.....but I'm hoping that once I get it adjusted at 70F temps, it'll be good in the future if it stays in the house.
Live and learn.
I'll post another picture once it's done.
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post #13 of 15 Old 12-18-2018, 04:19 PM Thread Starter
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I found another problem with the thing.
One of the boards for the "cabinet" part is not flat/straight - a bit bowed.
I'm wondering if the struts I put on the doors are making the problem worse...

What should I do to fix this? Can I just put pressure on the board with a clamp to try to straighten it (or at least hold it from separating any further ) and add another Kreg screw closer to the edge? Though I'm not sure if/how I'd get the Kreg jig in there to drill out the pocket for it.

Or, put in a long screw (with a 3/4" to 1" smooth shank near the head) from the outside/bottom of that board, and up into the side piece to pull it up tight - or at least hold it from separating further. I think that it's likely a risk splitting the bottom board though.

I suppose as a last resort, I could just pull that board out and replace it. But that's more work than I'd really like to do.

Might there be other woodworker's secret solutions to this problem?


Here are some pictures showing what I'm talking about:
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Last edited by bmwfan; 12-18-2018 at 04:27 PM.
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post #14 of 15 Old 12-18-2018, 06:11 PM
where's my table saw?
 
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That's unfortunate ....

Using construction lumber like a 2 X 6 for cabinetry is not a good idea, It will twist, cup and warp regardless of what you do to prevent it. It's not quality wood to start with and relies on being installed in the building to help stabilize it.

You won't like this advice. Replace the cupped piece with a new one from Southern Yellow Pine or Poplar. Poplar is a great wood to work with for home projects and is readily available at the box stores.

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
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post #15 of 15 Old 12-19-2018, 12:22 AM Thread Starter
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The wood the cabinet is made out of just 1x4 pine (select quality at Menards).
I put 3" drywall screws in the ends for extra strength - since this may end up having 50+ lbs of guns and related stuff inside it and hanging on the wall.
The screws did pull that gap down a bit, but I was careful and didn't go too far that it cracked. There is still a gap there, but the screws should secure it and also stop any movement that opening/closing the door does on that end. Fingers crossed that temp and humidity changes won't cause it to crack in the future. It will be in the house all the time.
The idea on this thing is a rustic look, which this crappy wood, gaps, dings, etc - lives up to the low expectations. I may paint the entire cabinet part (1x4) black down the road, or char it darker/black with the torch - like I did with the flag stripes.
You can see the unlocking magnet in the bottom picture, stuck to the lock.
Wow - woodnthings, you're at 23,999 posts above (when I'm looking at this anyway).
Here are a couple pictures of it almost complete. I only have to put the back on (1/8" pressed type wood/fiber board stuff) and the hanging hardware.
My son will have to cut out the foam for his guns to fit in it.
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