New to woodworking, want to make sure I don't go down the wrong path - Page 2 - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
post #21 of 48 Old 03-26-2013, 03:35 PM
Senior Member
 
mattk8715's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: MI
Posts: 190
View mattk8715's Photo Album My Photos
I would take a good, 10" sliding compound miter saw over any jointer for sure.

I use a Festool TS-55 for straight edging all my rough sawn lumber. I think it does a better job, and it's faster than a jointer. One cut w/ that saw gives a perfectly straight board, w/ a glue ready edge. Plus, the TS-55 has a million other uses. I started using it for straight edging a little while after I bought it. It's a fantastic tool.

Rigid makes decent table saws IMO. What you want to look for is the ripping capacity. If it's only a 30" ripping capacity, you might consider going w/ Rigid's portable saw. You'll loose 5" of ripping capacity, but you'll be able to move it and get it out of the way when you aren't using it.

beer me

Last edited by mattk8715; 03-26-2013 at 03:41 PM.
mattk8715 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #22 of 48 Old 03-26-2013, 05:24 PM
where's my table saw?
 
woodnthings's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: SE, Michigan
Posts: 25,851
View woodnthings's Photo Album My Photos
Here's a simple way to look at it

The 3 stages of Woodworking are:
1. Design drawings, plans or concepts, including layout.
2. Execution or building and assembling
3. Finishing with wiped, brushed or a sprayed application

Hand Tool Recommendations:

Just get the basics and a "better" quality rather than the best at first. A few hammers and mallets, chisels, hand planes, hand saws, some drill bits and Forstners if possible, rather than spades, augers are fine for a hand brace. I don't recommend an eggbeater hand drill, although I have quite a few, they stay in the drawer out of harm's way. When I have a procedure to execute, I think "Power Tool" right away and then if there is no solution, I come back to hand tools, but that's just me.

Battery Power Tools
These have about taken over the corded tool market and there is not a function I can think of that is not available in a battery power tool. I was just at a very large Industrial Tool supplier today looking for a 2+ HP corded router. They had only Porter Cable, Bosch and Festool. No Makita, Dewalt, Milwaukee or Hitachi..... WHY? "We only carry what sells"

Power Tool Recommendations:

If you buy lumber that is already surfaced on all four sides, known as S4S, then you will be fine with a table saw and no need for a jointer or planer. Your table saw processes will be cutting material straight, to square it, angles or miters, making rabbets or grooves. There are molding head attachments, but they are for more advanced work. Your choice of the Rigid 4512 is good and has a good warranty. New or used either is fine. A well equipped shop will have a good table saw with plenty of support on the outfeed and either side.

Track saws have their fans, and there are many makes and models. I have one of the best, a Festool TS75, and all the tracks, but have yet to use it. It requires measuring twice to set the track parallel with an edge and I find that most annoying as compared to setting the fence on the table saw one time and "Let her rip" as many pieces as are required ...one setting does it. However, I have ripped many a 4 X 8 plywood sheet in the driveway, using a straight edge and a circular saw. A well equipped shop MAY have a track saw.

A Radial Arm Saw aka RAS, or a chop saw or a sliding compound miter saw AND a table saw with a sled will all make accurate miter cuts. A well equipped shop will have them all.

A router table or bandsaw would be my next recommendation based on the type of work you want to do. If you see curved pieces of furniture in your future, then it's the bandsaw. A router table will make edge treatments in the 1000's, grooves and rabbets as well. A well equipped shop will have both.

Drill presses are kinda ignored, but a very useful tool. To get perfectly vertical holes there is no better way. Whether it's wood or metal makes no difference. It's one of the tools that works well in either material. A mortising attachment is a cheap alternative to a stand alone mortising machine. A well equipped shop may have several, each set up for different operations.

Rough Sawn Lumber
If you want to save money in the long run by using rough sawn lumber, then you will need a jointer and a planer, usually purchased in separate machines. A jointer is needed to make a flat surface on one side of a rough board AND to create a straight and square edge on one side. You can edge joint with a table saw, but nothing can replace a jointer for making one surface flat and straight. After that process you use a thickness planer to make the other rough surface, which is the top, straight, flat and parallel to the bottom. A jointer removes material from the bottom of a board, a thickness plane removes material off the top. A well equipped shop will have both.

Sanding is a whole 'nother topic, since you can use a block of wood and sandpaper, hand held ROS, Random Orbit Sander OR go all the way up to drum sanders and wide belt sander costing $10,000 or more. Myself, I'm at the 24" dual drum sander stage at about $2500. I will never get a wide belt sander unless it falls off the truck in front of me, since I can rent time on one from a friend.

Spraying finishes is also a whole 'nother topic and is quite technical, specialized equipment, air pressures, volumes, catalysts, viscosity, color matching, water based vs solvent based vs oil base..etc.. Best left for a separate discussion.

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)

Last edited by woodnthings; 03-28-2013 at 10:43 AM. Reason: spelling
woodnthings is offline  
post #23 of 48 Old 03-26-2013, 07:25 PM
KTP
Overconfidant Rookie
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Akron, OH
Posts: 61
View KTP's Photo Album My Photos
I'm fairly new to woodworking too. I recommend the circular saw and straight edge method that others have described in the thread before buying a table saw. I made two bookshelves from hardwood plywood and cut all of the major components with a circ saw and straight edge. The cuts were much better than I had hoped for.

It is slower than a table saw, but for me turned out just as accurate. The fact that it's slower forces you to really take your time setting things up and make sure you're making the cut correctly. I noticed myself about to make several rookie mistakes I might not have caught on a table saw. It was also a good way to check my interest in wood working before spending a bunch of money. If you like the work well enough to fuss around with a straight edge and clamps all day, then you can probably justify an investment in bigger tools.
KTP is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #24 of 48 Old 03-26-2013, 11:56 PM Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 4
View leros's Photo Album My Photos
Thanks for all the advice everybody. I'm looking at getting into woodworking as a hobby. Down the road, I may get interested in making a bit of money on the side, but that's not my focus at all.

My workshop will be in my two car garage. I do park one vehicle in there, so I like to keep everything mobile with the ability to move it against the wall when I'm not using it.

I forgot to mention that I already have a workbench. This is it here. I built it before I had any interest in woodworking and just needed a surface in the garage for random projects. I think I'm going to take the top off and put a better surface on it. Eventually I'd like to build a second workbench geared more towards woodworking.

I'm not too particularly interested in building anything large. No cabinets, no bookshelves, etc. I'm more interesting in building smaller things along the lines of small boxes, cutting boards, etc. Would you still suggest starting with a circular saw and fence instead of a table saw?

The reason I've been looking at getting a jointer is that even the nice milled wood I've found at my local Woodcraft store isn't perfectly flat. For example, I was wanting to face joint a few pieces of oak, but the surfaces weren't perfectly flat. I do suppose I could go down the handtool route and get myself a few old planes instead of a jointer.

Last edited by leros; 03-27-2013 at 12:02 AM.
leros is offline  
post #25 of 48 Old 03-27-2013, 08:41 AM
where's my table saw?
 
woodnthings's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: SE, Michigan
Posts: 25,851
View woodnthings's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by leros View Post
. I'm more interesting in building smaller things along the lines of small boxes, cutting boards, etc. Would you still suggest starting with a circular saw and fence instead of a table saw?

The reason I've been looking at getting a jointer is that even the nice milled wood I've found at my local Woodcraft store isn't perfectly flat. For example, I was wanting to face joint a few pieces of oak, but the surfaces weren't perfectly flat. I do suppose I could go down the handtool route and get myself a few old planes instead of a jointer.
I do not use a circular saw for cutting small pieces. A table saw with a sled is much safer, even safer than a miter or chop saw since on those the blade is fully exposed and your fingers will be too close to it.
A properly tuned bandsaw can be used to safely cut small pieces, which can then be sanded to remove the saw marks. A 4" x 36" combination disc and belt sander works well for me. You can develop a feel for the sanding process by just lightly touching the piece to the belt using no pressure. When the marks are sanded down the pressure will change and there will be slightly more resistance... that's when you stop. In my opinion, a bandsaw is highly under rated for accuracy. It does depend on the number of teeth in the blade and if you have the machine properly tuned to cut without drift.

As far as the jointer goes, Your boards must be straight and flat to get accurate cuts on the table saw and when assembling them, and the jointer is the only way to do that quickly. Hand planing is fine if you enjoy the process as some folks here do. Unless your planes are sharp and tuned you will struggle and not enjoy the process.

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
woodnthings is offline  
post #26 of 48 Old 03-27-2013, 10:55 AM
Master firewood maker
 
Chris Curl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Maryland
Posts: 1,972
View Chris Curl's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by woodnthings View Post
...
In my opinion, a bandsaw is highly under rated for accuracy. It does depend on the number of teeth in the blade and if you have the machine properly tuned to cut without drift.
...
Leros, if you are going to get a band saw, make sure you get a good one. I had a cheap one, and no matter what I did to try to tune it, I could not get it to not wander. It was worthless.
Chris Curl is offline  
post #27 of 48 Old 03-27-2013, 11:06 AM
Senior Member
 
Cliff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 441
View Cliff's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by jascotx View Post
there is such a thing as diminishing returns.

Not true. You can't put a price on pleasure. You can only find the limits of your capability. And besides it is a hobby it is not supposed to make sense as I told my missus while I'm building a few thousand dollars worth of electric, computer operated, personal micro brewery.

So maybe a guy can't afford a Martin shop, that doesn't change the fact that it wouldn't be over kill. It'd be pure happiness.
Cliff is offline  
post #28 of 48 Old 03-27-2013, 11:13 AM
Senior Member
 
Cliff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 441
View Cliff's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by woodnthings View Post
The 3 stages of Woodworking are:
1. Design drawings, plans or concepts, including layout.
2. Execution or building and assembling
3. Finishing with wiped, brushed or a sprayed application
And I thought they were
1) looking at things and thinking to oneself "Hey, I can do that~!"
2) spending oneself apoplectic on all manner of lovely toys.
3) keeping those toys from rusting overnight in a damp cellar.

Hey~!!! It's a hobby~!! It's not supposed to make sense.
Cliff is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Cliff For This Useful Post:
craigwbryant (03-27-2013)
post #29 of 48 Old 03-27-2013, 06:50 PM
KTP
Overconfidant Rookie
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Akron, OH
Posts: 61
View KTP's Photo Album My Photos
I agree with woodnthings. The circular saw and straight edge method is inadvisable for small stuff. I've had great success breaking down plywood that way, but that's because the technique's well suited to long cuts on wide surfaces.

I'd buy a table saw before a jointer, and I'd buy a compound miter saw before a table saw for small scale stuff. Like everything else though, that's personal preference if I had to pick just one power tool. I'd rather rip and joint small pieces by hand than make accurate miters by hand.
KTP is offline  
post #30 of 48 Old 03-27-2013, 08:26 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Near Boston, Massachusetts
Posts: 1,505
View amckenzie4's Photo Album My Photos
I also agree that a circular saw is a poor choice for small parts; use a hand saw for those. A decent gents saw or back saw should put you back less than $50, and will be safer than either a circular saw, a jig saw, a miter saw.

Or use a bandsaw...
amckenzie4 is offline  
post #31 of 48 Old 03-27-2013, 09:19 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 138
View SebringDon's Photo Album My Photos
Andy's right; I use a handsaw for a lot of small stuff, and recently got an old bandsaw working to do some others. That said, if you want to use a circular saw for smaller pieces, build something like this. (The saw blade is exposed because I hadn't yet cut the resting tray to width to allow the guard to be in the correct position. DO NOT use this jig without making that cut; it will expose the blade when the saw is outside the jig.) I find this is still useful even with a hand saw and a (marginal) bandsaw in my toolkit.

I can clamp small pieces to the right of the blade and cut just about anything I need. I don't think I'd use it for veneer, though. In the pic, it's loaded with a pair of 3/4" panels I was matching for a set of dog stairs; I hadn't paid enough attention and messed up one of the panel cuts, so I just stacked them together, aligned the good one with the cut line on the track, and trimmed the bottom one to match.


Last edited by SebringDon; 03-27-2013 at 09:22 PM.
SebringDon is offline  
post #32 of 48 Old 03-28-2013, 09:27 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 994
View 4DThinker's Photo Album My Photos
It is the nature of the industry to improve tools and blades over time. As you invest in tools, keep in mind that there will eventually be a better tool out there you'll wish you had. Get in the habit of trading up or simply selling your old machine for some cash to contribute to the purchase of the new one and you'll be a happier camper. I suffer from having an old table saw. I inherited it from an Uncle. I want and can afford a new saw, but can't seem to force myself to part with my old one. I don't have room for both. Don't be afraid to upgrade as time goes on.

4D
4DThinker is offline  
post #33 of 48 Old 03-28-2013, 10:38 AM
Senior Member
 
Schramm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Spring Valley Illinois
Posts: 122
View Schramm's Photo Album My Photos
Send a message via Skype™ to Schramm
I didnt want to go down the Festool path for a beginner but since the TS55 was brought up for straight edging.....

If I was just starting out, I think that I would go the Festool route! Last year I bought my first tool from Festool which was the Kapex compound miter saw with the UG stand and wings which was quite an investment at about $2600 delivered but I will say it is the best saw when it comes to finish carpentry (perfect for entry to expert). Since I bought this I have now bought the domino and the TS 55 with (5) 55" tracks, that saw is so awesome and is so versatile. The TS 55 for many things is better then a table saw unless you are ripping to get the most strips out of a panel of plywood which is where a table saw can shine.

"LIKE" Us on FACEBOOK

If you cannot find time to do it right the first time, how will you find the time to do it over?
Schramm is offline  
post #34 of 48 Old 03-28-2013, 11:46 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 136
View jascotx's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliff View Post

Not true. You can't put a price on pleasure. You can only find the limits of your capability. And besides it is a hobby it is not supposed to make sense as I told my missus while I'm building a few thousand dollars worth of electric, computer operated, personal micro brewery.

So maybe a guy can't afford a Martin shop, that doesn't change the fact that it wouldn't be over kill. It'd be pure happiness.
I think you need to watch more Stumpy Nubs.
jascotx is offline  
post #35 of 48 Old 03-28-2013, 11:53 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Near Boston, Massachusetts
Posts: 1,505
View amckenzie4's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliff View Post
Not true. You can't put a price on pleasure. You can only find the limits of your capability. And besides it is a hobby it is not supposed to make sense as I told my missus while I'm building a few thousand dollars worth of electric, computer operated, personal micro brewery.

So maybe a guy can't afford a Martin shop, that doesn't change the fact that it wouldn't be over kill. It'd be pure happiness.
I think this is a personal preference sort of thing. For me, happiness is having time to go out to the shop and putter. I like quirky old tools; I watched an episode of "The Woodwright's Shop" the other day, and now desperately want a mortising machine like the one Roy Underhill has. I'm planning to build a treadle powered lathe this summer, not so much because I can't afford an electric one, but because using something that weird brings me joy.

Short version, expensive tools don't make everyone happy. If they do you, more power to you: Neither one of us is right or wrong.
amckenzie4 is offline  
post #36 of 48 Old 03-28-2013, 12:08 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 136
View jascotx's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliff View Post

Not true. You can't put a price on pleasure. You can only find the limits of your capability. And besides it is a hobby it is not supposed to make sense as I told my missus while I'm building a few thousand dollars worth of electric, computer operated, personal micro brewery.

So maybe a guy can't afford a Martin shop, that doesn't change the fact that it wouldn't be over kill. It'd be pure happiness.
Happiness or not; rich or not; money always has an opportunity cost. Therein, lies the concept of diminishing returns. If you don't agree, then why don't you buy the OP his dream saw for him. Sounds like he would really appreciate it.
jascotx is offline  
post #37 of 48 Old 03-29-2013, 10:33 AM
Senior Member
 
Cliff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 441
View Cliff's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
then why don't you buy the OP his dream saw for him. Sounds like he would really appreciate it.
I am unable to see how your suggestion makes any sense. How is one concept connected to the other? Anyway, I'm not sure that I should let anyone dictate what my responses or thinking should be. I prefer to set my own agenda thanks.


Quote:
not so much because I can't afford an electric one, but because using something that weird brings me joy.
I enjoy making my own machine tools - which is sort of similar I think.
After watching this video
I am stone cold convinced that with very little steel and mostly Oak you could build a perfectly good version of that mortiser.

I'd skip the huge wing like leaf strings that he has and opt for a conventional coil spring to return the chisel.

The chisels might be only problem.
Here is the original set:
http://hyperkitten.com/pics/blog/Diamond_Mortiser_8.jpg

If I made a set, I'd not bother with the morse taper. I'd just bolt them in place. The taper is all about speedy removal and installation.
Reproducing that exact pattern would require the services of someone with a miller and you would also need a heat treating oven.

There is a perfectly good work around for that though.
If you were very patient you could hand grind high speed steel tool bits to the geometry that would work. They come in very exact inch standard and metric dimensions. A cove would work nicely. Then just braise or weld them to a sufficiently large hunk of mild or hot rolled steel and you'd have your cutter.

I'd sacrifice a grinding wheel to the job by dressing it in a radius instead of the usual flat face to obtain the cove grind and produce a shape like this:
New to woodworking, want to make sure I don't go down the wrong path-mortise-cutter.jpg
That would take about 2-3 hours to hand grind.

Hey~!!! It's a hobby~!! It's not supposed to make sense.
Cliff is offline  
post #38 of 48 Old 03-29-2013, 11:10 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 620
View jigs-n-fixtures's Photo Album My Photos
Keep money on the bank, and buy quality as needed
jigs-n-fixtures is offline  
post #39 of 48 Old 03-29-2013, 12:40 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 136
View jascotx's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliff View Post
I am unable to see how your suggestion makes any sense. How is one concept connected to the other? Anyway, I'm not sure that I should let anyone dictate what my responses or thinking should be. I prefer to set my own agenda thanks.
Yes, you should do as you please. And to be honest, I like hearing from you about the high end equipment even though I will never buy it. But, please don't criticize others for making sound economic decisions based on need, value, and yes, diminishing return. I'm not cheap, I just find more joy seeing my money make more money through investing it. My kids thank me too since their college is fully funded...the oldest is 3. That is "pure joy" for me Cliff. I would work wood with just one knife, a rock to sharpen it, and a stick. Having anything nicer is a blessing, not a requirement.
jascotx is offline  
post #40 of 48 Old 03-29-2013, 01:20 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: North East
Posts: 179
View LearnByDoing's Photo Album My Photos
I do not understand how a thread titled "new to woodworking and don't want to go down wrong path" with a poster asking where he should start winds up with suggestions for spending thousands of dollars on Festool and the like. Unless you have money to burn don't waste money on anything until you've decided what you want to do. Start with a project. Pick one you'll enjoy, you will learn from, and will involve and investment in a minimum amount of tools. You will learn a TON, not only about woodworking but about what tools you like, don't like, or want to buy. But most importanly, you will either fall more deeply for woodworking OR SHOCKER... decide it's not for you. And if the later happens, you didn't waste a ton of money.

I have a buddy who blew about $6500 on a workshop full of used JET tools and other misc. Stuff. He had a fantasy of being a woodworker. Most of that stuff has collected dust in the 4 years he's owned it. Hell, I've used some of the stuff more than him. He didn't even know he had forsner bits, let alone what they were. Now he makes plenty of money so it certainly didn't break him. And he may, one day use them all to their fullest. But until then he could have used that money on other things and taken his time in deciding what he needed and didn't.
LearnByDoing is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
ROS leaving path marks RichO General Woodworking Discussion 11 10-30-2012 08:56 AM
In flood path? mike1950 Off Topic 2 05-15-2011 10:14 AM
Any of you make money off woodworking? Marcus General Woodworking Discussion 31 09-16-2010 07:00 PM
HELP! What did I do wrong?? ETBee General Woodworking Discussion 9 02-11-2010 07:57 PM
Beginer - Lamp wiring path question? Tayook General Woodworking Discussion 8 11-30-2009 08:09 AM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome