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post #21 of 45 Old 01-16-2020, 10:18 PM
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Good thoughts. I would like to add, from my own experience, the most important. If you are tired or fatigued you have no business around a saw. A lot on your mind, no business around a saw. Do not allow yourself to become distracted. Fortunately I still have all 10, but I came very close to a serious injury one day. I was cutting a good number of tenons on a tenoning jig. My wife came into the shop to ask me a few questions. Rather than completing my task, I stopped to talk to her (as a good husband should). In doing so, I lost track of where I was and as she was walking out I turned my saw on and pushed another piece on the tenoning jig through the saw. The problem was in being distracted I did not realize that I never tightened the piece in the jig. It bound up in the blade and fired back. I was not even directly behind. The small piece of 1x2x6 flew back hitting me, fortunately on the flat, in the abdomen. The torgue was great enough that even though it hit me in the belly, it bruised my kidney and I was urinating blood for a few days, scary. Now, when someone comes into my shop I put up my hand in a stop signal. Complete my task, make a mental note of where I am, and then we can talk.
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post #22 of 45 Old 01-17-2020, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by DesertRatTom View Post
It's older than that. Patents last 17 years and were about 18 months from the end for Saw Stop. But they clearly are more about legal tricks than tools, so we can expect them to do whatever they can to stop other safe saw methods. The management isn't interested in user safety. don't kid yourselves. Yes, the saw is excellent, but overpriced and uses a destructive method where the Bosch system is non destructive. Which is better, one or two?



I think Bosch management is much smarter and will find a way to license their system to everyone who wants it. They could license it cheap, license others to make the device and put the Saw Stop out of business for good. Financially a little from a lot beats a lot from a few. I was a business writer for five years and detest such business practices and the sleazy executives that perpetrate them. Srong letter to follow...
I know how old it is.I'm talking about the conversation on. woodworking talk.

Remember I was in the big argument on Woodnet with Steve years ago that got me kicked of.

Remember I was on the professional end, not the hobby end of it all those years....Rebel
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post #23 of 45 Old 01-17-2020, 10:36 AM
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Tool Agnostic, is it your position that no woodworking should be done without a Saw Stop saw?
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post #24 of 45 Old 01-17-2020, 12:19 PM
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Tool Agnostic, is it your position that no woodworking should be done without a Saw Stop saw?
That's a great question that makes me think. My response is:

The additional cost of a SawStop is well worth the reduction in risk that it gets you. As I have said before, you should treat it like an insurance policy. I realize that some people disagree with my assessment of the values, and that's okay - we can agree to disagree. There are those who cannot afford a SawStop today. I would not ever exclude them from woodworking, but caution them to fully understand the risks and the vigilance required to stay safe, especially over the long term. It is that expectation of perfection over the long term that is my primary concern. I hope that they aspire to save up for a SawStop when they can. It is my fondest dream that the SawStop patents will expire or be licensed in a way to make affordable safety saws available to all, making the question moot.
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post #25 of 45 Old 01-17-2020, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Tool Agnostic View Post
That's a great question that makes me think. My response is:

The additional cost of a SawStop is well worth the reduction in risk that it gets you. As I have said before, you should treat it like an insurance policy. I realize that some people disagree with my assessment of the values, and that's okay - we can agree to disagree. There are those who cannot afford a SawStop today. I would not ever exclude them from woodworking, but caution them to fully understand the risks and the vigilance required to stay safe, especially over the long term. It is that expectation of perfection over the long term that is my primary concern. I hope that they aspire to save up for a SawStop when they can. It is my fondest dream that the SawStop patents will expire or be licensed in a way to make affordable safety saws available to all, making the question moot.
If you can afford it and it's an upgrade or a new purchase you should make it a priority to have a sawstop. For many of us that option isn't there. Either no money,too old or just too much invested to make a change.

Most hobby woodworkers start out slow and need to many tools to dump several thousands in a table saw to start.

Professional shops are slowly coming around but there only replacing with Sawstop as older saws are wearing out..

Being a professional puts me on the other side the fence looking in on hobby woodworking...Now I'm on the hobby side but the other side hasn't changed yet..there still not jumping on the safety wagon. I don't think there has been a large insurance duduction for the use of a Sawstop yet. There are no guards in cabinet shop. Haven't seen one on he first 30 years I was in there. Not on mine either but it's becoming important to put the factory guard back on mine...

Remember hobby woodworkers DON'T have to use or own a tablesaw to begin with. It's a choice like owning a sawtop....Rebel

Last edited by Rebelwork; 01-17-2020 at 02:37 PM.
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post #26 of 45 Old 01-17-2020, 06:46 PM Thread Starter
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There is a Community College near by. In '05, maybe '06 I helped to install 10 industrial 5 HP Saw Stop cabinet saws. At AWFS in Las Vegas, last July, I had an interesting conversation with the Woodworking Department Head. We were chatting how things have gone since I left. Safety at this CC is above everything. I witnessed a student dropped by the instructor because the student would not pay attention nor listen to safety issues. This school has never had an amputation in the woodworking department in over 40 years of teaching woodworking.

This safety culture is one of the very few good things that have come out of political gamesmanship. There is an individual that has been attempting to shut down the woodworking department for years. So the safety policy of no blood is a very good one.

Naturally I asked if they had any blade drops on the Saw Stop machines. The Department Head's answer was, "Dozens, more than I can remember." I was shocked knowing the safety culture at the CC. He went on to explain that only one produced blood. And the blood was more of a scratch than a cut. He said that people had touched the blade, touched the blade with measuring tapes, wet or treated wood, touched the blade with the fence but no real damage.

I am thankful that I was taught the CC's safety culture. I practice it every time I am in the shop. If I ever get to the point of buying a replacement for my Unisaw, it will be a Saw Stop. And I still have an intense dislike for Stephen Gass.

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post #27 of 45 Old 01-17-2020, 11:19 PM
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I still do lot of outside projects with fairly wet wood. If I forgot to turn off the stop, it would cost up to $200 to replace the cartridge and the blade, more if I had a premium blade. So if I turn the feature off, then I have a nice saw that's overpriced compared to many other saws.



The most important safety feature then becomes the Grripper, which is my prefered feed device and that I use ALL the time. Many accidents happen becaus people take off the splitter, causing twisty wood to grab the blade, or by trying to force the feed using your hands to push. Just don't do that and use the Grripper and you have greatly reduced your risk. I think this is important because so many hobbyists have saws without the stop feature. They are the ones who really need to protect themselves by using all the cautinary methods that have been posted here. Being cavalier about working with ultra share steel cutters spinning at 100 mph is just plain stupid. SawStop's management, like all management, is trying to find ways to force people to buy their product. There is nothing that could build more resistance to a product faster than that.

I'm not going to pop $4000 to replace my extremely good $1400 Laguna, but I do have the safety features in place, two Grrippers, push sticks, blade guard or Shark Guard when I can, sleds and many other jigs to keep a safe distance from the blade. If I had a SawStop, I'd still use every other safety method I do now. And, I'd take the time to preplan every cut I make before setting up and making every cut.
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post #28 of 45 Old 01-18-2020, 06:48 AM
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4
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Originally Posted by DesertRatTom View Post
I still do lot of outside projects with fairly wet wood. If I forgot to turn off the stop, it would cost up to $200 to replace the cartridge and the blade, more if I had a premium blade. So if I turn the feature off, then I have a nice saw that's overpriced compared to many other saws.



The most important safety feature then becomes the Grripper, which is my prefered feed device and that I use ALL the time. Many accidents happen becaus people take off the splitter, causing twisty wood to grab the blade, or by trying to force the feed using your hands to push. Just don't do that and use the Grripper and you have greatly reduced your risk. I think this is important because so many hobbyists have saws without the stop feature. They are the ones who really need to protect themselves by using all the cautinary methods that have been posted here. Being cavalier about working with ultra share steel cutters spinning at 100 mph is just plain stupid. SawStop's management, like all management, is trying to find ways to force people to buy their product. There is nothing that could build more resistance to a product faster than that.

I'm not going to pop $4000 to replace my extremely good $1400 Laguna, but I do have the safety features in place, two Grrippers, push sticks, blade guard or Shark Guard when I can, sleds and many other jigs to keep a safe distance from the blade. If I had a SawStop, I'd still use every other safety method I do now. And, I'd take the time to preplan every cut I make before setting up and making every cut.
Safety features in place are still not guarantees you won't get hurt on a tablesaw..
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post #29 of 45 Old 01-18-2020, 03:03 PM
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I just want to add that everybody is right here. I have strong feelings about SawStop and have made them known, but I respect others' opinions. We can agree to disagree on some points and still be friends.

Just because I am a proponent of safety retraction mechanisms on table saws doesn't mean that I follow or encourage lesser safety practices as a result. I use blade guards, GRR-Rippers, featherboards, and other safety mechanisms with a SawStop table saw just as I would with any other table saw.

For example, many people remove the blade guards and never replace them. I use the blade guards whenever I can. We can agree to disagree about that, but still enjoy woodworking together.
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post #30 of 45 Old 01-19-2020, 12:45 AM Thread Starter
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I'm not going to pop $4000 to replace my extremely good $1400 Laguna,
Using your numbers, how many ER visit co-pays can you get out of the $2600 difference?
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post #31 of 45 Old 01-20-2020, 12:36 PM
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I own Saw stop Pro as well as a Dewalt contractor table saw. I also have routers, joiners, Band Saws chop saws, planers, jig saws, etc. Aside from the Saw Stop, I have about 100 other ways to maim myself.

What is the point of investing money on a table saw that protects you if you are careless with your other tools as well? My Saw stop is a great saw but I didn't purchase it for the sake of keeping my fingers, I purchased it because it is a great saw with overall great features. I still use it respectively the same as I use any piece of machinery. I don't wish to rely on a brake system to save my fingers, I would rather rely on good safe work practices.

Pick a saw with great features that is proven from a great company. Think of the brake system on the Saw Stop as an airbag in a car. You hope you never need it. Just because you have airbags doesn't mean you can be reckless on the road and take risks.

As a side note, using my built sled, the brake system on my saw engaged and ruined my nice crosscut diablo blade as well as the brake system needing to be changed out.
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post #32 of 45 Old 01-20-2020, 01:04 PM
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I own Saw stop Pro as well as a Dewalt contractor table saw. I also have routers, joiners, Band Saws chop saws, planers, jig saws, etc. Aside from the Saw Stop, I have about 100 other ways to maim myself.

What is the point of investing money on a table saw that protects you if you are careless with your other tools as well? My Saw stop is a great saw but I didn't purchase it for the sake of keeping my fingers, I purchased it because it is a great saw with overall great features. I still use it respectively the same as I use any piece of machinery. I don't wish to rely on a brake system to save my fingers, I would rather rely on good safe work practices.

Pick a saw with great features that is proven from a great company. Think of the brake system on the Saw Stop as an airbag in a car. You hope you never need it. Just because you have airbags doesn't mean you can be reckless on the road and take risks.

As a side note, using my built sled, the brake system on my saw engaged and ruined my nice crosscut diablo blade as well as the brake system needing to be changed out.
People don't purchase a sawstop because they want to be careless....No matter how careful you are accidents happens

I used an the sawstop industrial for 5+ years. Nothing special about it. You didn't buy it for the safety feature but fit and finish? Okay I believe ya...... Rebel

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post #33 of 45 Old 01-20-2020, 02:44 PM
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People don't purchase a sawstop because they want to be careless....No matter how careful you are accidents happens

I used an the sawstop industrial for 5+ years. Nothing special about it. You didn't buy it for the safety feature but fit and finish? Okay I believe ya...... Rebel

Yes I bought it for the fit and finish. You buy a table saw for a brake system? Do any of your other tools have brake systems? I'm not sure what your problem is with the quality of the saw. As long as the fence is true to the blade and I can get the blade at 90 degrees with the apron, it does what I want. Hell my Dewalt contractor saw does a good job and rips up to 32". I use it as much, if not more than my cabinet saw.



Sure I can spend 3k-4k on a Grizzly Extreme or a Powermatic but I get great results with my saws.



I'm not really sure what your point is. I have all of my fingers and it's not because I bought a Saw stop. And I disagree with your statement regarding safety Accidents happen when people get careless and lose focus, overconfidence. I work in the line trade and I've never heard anyone in my 17 years in the trade teach that accidents happen 'no matter how careful you are'. What a terrible work practice to preach.
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post #34 of 45 Old 01-20-2020, 03:05 PM
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Yes I bought it for the fit and finish. You buy a table saw for a brake system? Do any of your other tools have brake systems? I'm not sure what your problem is with the quality of the saw. As long as the fence is true to the blade and I can get the blade at 90 degrees with the apron, it does what I want. Hell my Dewalt contractor saw does a good job and rips up to 32". I use it as much, if not more than my cabinet saw.



Sure I can spend 3k-4k on a Grizzly Extreme or a Powermatic but I get great results with my saws.



I'm not really sure what your point is. I have all of my fingers and it's not because I bought a Saw stop. And I disagree with your statement regarding safety Accidents happen when people get careless and lose focus, overconfidence. I work in the line trade and I've never heard anyone in my 17 years in the trade teach that accidents happen 'no matter how careful you are'. What a terrible work practice to preach.
Sorry I didn't realize you had a tablesaw all figured out..Your one of "THOSE" guys..Rebel
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post #35 of 45 Old 01-20-2020, 03:15 PM
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Using your numbers, how many ER visit co-pays can you get out of the $2600 difference?
That is an invalid argument based on a presumption that if you don't have a Saw Stop brand saw, you WILL inevitably be hurt by your conventional table saw and have to pay great sums of money to repair your body. This is simply not necessarily so. It might be interesting to know how many millions of people over the years lived their entire lives without getting hurt by their conventional table saw. Sure, there is no question that some inattentive or untrained folks indeed have been hurt either by blade contact or blunt force trauma (kickback), but I think you'd find that the vast majority never experienced a medical event.

I'm all for safety, and I'm all for anyone that wishes to have a Saw Stop, or any other device that they feel might increase their own safety factor. However, alluding that there is no other way to be safe in the shop on our table saws is absolutely false. Very few of us will ever spend a huge copay due to our woodworking hobby. We will carefully think about our cut and then execute that cut with due diligence.

Also remember that a Saw Stop brand table saw will ONLY help prevent blade contact injuries. It will do nothing that any other modern table saw will not do to prevent kickbacks. The fact is that, with all the guards, splitters and other do-dads that are on the modern table saw, you shouldn't even be ABLE to get your hands in contact with the blade. Use a good push stick or jig, and half of your brain (same goes for any power operation in the shop), and you will be very unlikely to have to write a big check to the ER.
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Another $000,000,000.02 worth of advice,
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post #36 of 45 Old 01-20-2020, 03:48 PM
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Sorry I didn't realize you had a tablesaw all figured out..Your one of "THOSE" guys..Rebel

I guess I am one of "those" guys, whatever that suggests. The OP was asking for suggestions on choosing a table saw so I was offering my advice and experience with the saws I have and use. I'm just not sure how your response to my post was relevant or helpful but if it made you feel good, then I'm happy for you. Have a good day, sir :)
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post #37 of 45 Old 01-20-2020, 04:00 PM
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People don't purchase a sawstop because they want to be careless...that was to the point i made to your comment...

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post #38 of 45 Old 01-20-2020, 04:30 PM
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People don't purchase a sawstop because they want to be careless...that was to the point i made to your comment...

Rebel
People purchase table saws that aren't Sawstop because they have a choice, or can't afford the high dollar Sawstop. It is none of your business what anyone other than yourself buys.

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post #39 of 45 Old 01-20-2020, 04:34 PM
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I don't know about anyone else but there are two subjects around here that are getting really tiresome reading about, Sawstop and Radial Arm Saws.

There is enough information out there that has already been discussed about both of them that there is really nothing new to add, we all have our opinions, another post is not going to change that. Some days I think my signature says it all.
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post #40 of 45 Old 01-20-2020, 05:46 PM
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Ignoring the nastiness above, but responding to this post, which addresses my points exactly:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shop_Rat View Post
That is an invalid argument based on a presumption that if you don't have a Saw Stop brand saw, you WILL inevitably be hurt by your conventional table saw and have to pay great sums of money to repair your body. This is simply not necessarily so. It might be interesting to know how many millions of people over the years lived their entire lives without getting hurt by their conventional table saw. Sure, there is no question that some inattentive or untrained folks indeed have been hurt either by blade contact or blunt force trauma (kickback), but I think you'd find that the vast majority never experienced a medical event.

I'm all for safety, and I'm all for anyone that wishes to have a Saw Stop, or any other device that they feel might increase their own safety factor. However, alluding that there is no other way to be safe in the shop on our table saws is absolutely false. Very few of us will ever spend a huge copay due to our woodworking hobby. We will carefully think about our cut and then execute that cut with due diligence.

Also remember that a Saw Stop brand table saw will ONLY help prevent blade contact injuries. It will do nothing that any other modern table saw will not do to prevent kickbacks. The fact is that, with all the guards, splitters and other do-dads that are on the modern table saw, you shouldn't even be ABLE to get your hands in contact with the blade. Use a good push stick or jig, and half of your brain (same goes for any power operation in the shop), and you will be very unlikely to have to write a big check to the ER.
That is the essence of my argument, but I do not consider it invalid, nor do I agree that "[...] you WILL inevitably be hurt by your conventional table saw [...]"

I say this:
I do not like the long term risk and the expectation of perfection. That's why I feel that safety blade retraction in a table saw is very important. Agree or disagree, that's okay with me.

I know many woodworkers who have not been injured by table saws. I know too many woodworkers who have always been very careful and conscientious about safety, but still carry scars and worse from table saw injuries. Perhaps I know the wrong kind of woodworkers. Nonetheless, I do not like the long term odds based on my own observations. It is as simple as that.

I would not buy a SawStop solely for the safety feature if it were not a good table saw. If it did not cut well as a table saw, this entire thread would be moot. SawStop makes excellent table saws and they do well when compared with other table saws.

SawStop does not protect you from your other power tools, and many of them have potential for serious injury too. I wonder how much the SawStop patents have blocked similar innovations for other tools.

Bottom line: I believe that the essential differences among us are:
* How we assess table saw safety risk.
and
* How much we value table saw blade retraction safety technology.
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