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New Table Saw Consideration

6K views 44 replies 17 participants last post by  woodnthings 
#1 ·
I have finally arrived at a bit of advice to a new woodworker considering the purchase of a new table saw.

Look at all the models available. Get all the prices. Find all the sources.

Then check with your company's HR department and ask, "What is the co-pay for an ER visit?"

Take that number and triple it because there could be additional costs associated with the ER visit.

Take the tripled number and add it to your budget. Then go buy a Saw Stop table saw. I am a woodworker and not associated with Saw Stop in any way. To be honest I really dislike the lawyer that started Saw Stop. But we like woodworkers on this forum AND it is so much easier to type with 10 fingers.
 
#2 · (Edited)
There is just no debating that .......

There is no argument that the Saw Stop is the ultimate in table saw safety technology and that it lives up to it's claims. However, many of the questions here also have significant budget issues which rule it out as a choice.So, what to do?


My advice is simple in principle:
Avoid kick backs.
Keep your fingers out of the blade path.

OK, how?
To avoid kickbacks use a splitter or riving knife which will maintain the workpiece against the fence all the way through the entire length of the cut.
Use a proper push shoe, not a push stick, which allows you to apply forward, lateral and downward feed pressure simultaneously. Get a "Gripper" which does this and costs under $100.00 and a set up Safety push blocks:
https://www.amazon.com/GRR-RIPPER-P...jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==

https://www.amazon.com/Safety-Woodw...per+table+saw+accessory&qid=1579161212&sr=8-5

Finally, use your table saw's throat plate as "Red Zone" as the danger area where hands and fingers are "NOT ALLOWED". By keeping your fingers away from the blade path, you can pretty much assure a safe operation each time you use the saw.

All this assumes you have properly set up the saw, with it's blade parallel to the miter slot, and the fence is parallel to the miter slot and locks securely in place each time it is moved. Don't even begin to use a saw that is not set up in this manner since it will not be safe nor will it give you correct performance. Use the proper blade for the operation, a rip blade with 24 teeth for thick hardwood, a cross cut blade with 60 teeth for plywood and fine miters, and a combination blade with 40 or 50 teeth for 75% of your general operations. It should be kept as sharp and clean as you possibly can.

Whether you use a blade guard with this combination of devices and advice is a personal choice in my opinion. It will most certainly prevent you from cutting your fingers off, BUT is almost always a hinderance in certain ripping operations where the space between the blade and fence is minimal. It must also be adjusted so it will easily and effortlessly ride up and over the front edge of the workpiece as it enters the blade. If it is not easy to use, you will be frustrated with it and off it goes into the drawer or to be hung on the wall. In my case, I use a modified blade cover, a friction fit on my splitter, that I can adjust in any position from fully down on the top of the workpiece or completely up and out of the way:


A very good discussion about push sticks here:
https://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f97/what-style-push-stick-do-you-use-132802/
 
#3 ·
I like my DIY sawstop; its called "dont put myself in a situation where fingers meeting blade is even possible". Dont get me wrong, i like sawstops and think that the technology can be lifesaving, but in a home shop environment i feel they just encourage complacency. After all, if youre doing something you shouldnt, if youre putting your hands where the blade could catch them, the saw will stop itself, right? What happens if it doesnt though?

Sawstops are great for environments where there are multiple people, or for inexperienced people to learn how to use the tools. A high school shop class is a perfect example, throw equal parts stupid and inexperienced in a room like that and add power tools and something is bound to happen. Someone screws around and runs into someone running a saw, someone gets rushed and decides to ignore the push sticks for just one cut, someones just gets distracted. A home shop though? Sure, the extra safety is nice, but theres significantly fewer unknowns. At that point, its more likely to be complacency that causes an accident

Sawstops are great, but they arent a substitute for common sense in the home shop. Frankly, if you cant make a cut without knowing your hand cant contact the blade even if something goes wrong, you either need to find another way to make the cut or not operate the saw
 
#4 ·
Ooops, I forgot ........

One of the most important safety "accessories" you can have or make is a zero clearance throat plate. How so? When slivers of wood get wedged between the blade and the opening, two things may happen.
You may be tempted to pull them out with the blade still spinning and get get your fingers pulled into the blade. OR they will impede to forward feeding of the workpiece and you will be tempted to add more force and that may result in going into the blade too fast with less control. Either of these may have dire consequences. :vs_OMG:


The second most important "accessory" of equal importance is a outfeed support. How so? You don't want to be reaching over or around the spinning blade to catch either your workpiece or the cut off. The outfeed support will not only give longer pieces support, but act as a "catcher" for smaller pieces. Just as staying out and away from the "Red Zone" in front of the blade, the rear of the blade is just as dangerous! My new zero clearance throat plates are white UHM plastic, so I have a hite zone rather than red ....... :|


My saws have the older, thinner Craftsman metal factory throat plates, so rather than make an all new version, I simply added inserts into the original one .... far easier:
https://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f27/make-zero-clearance-throat-plate-insert-10147/




:vs_cool:
 
#5 ·
One of the most important safety "accessories" you can have or make is a zero clearance throat plate. How so? When slivers of wood get wedged between the blade and the opening, two things may happen.
You may be tempted to pull them out with the blade still spinning and get get your fingers pulled into the blade. OR they will impede to forward feeding of the workpiece and you will be tempted to add more force and that may result in going into the blade too fast with less control. Either of these may have dire consequences. :vs_OMG:


The second most important "accessory" of equal importance is a outfeed support. How so? You don't want to be reaching over or around the spinning blade to catch either your workpiece or the cut off. The outfeed support will not only give longer pieces support, but act as a "catcher" for smaller pieces. Just as staying out and away from the "Red Zone" in front of the blade, the rear of the blade is just as dangerous! My new zero clearance throat plates are white UHM plastic, so I have a hite zone rather than red ....... :|


My saws have the older, thinner Craftsman metal factory throat plates, so rather than make an all new version, I simply added inserts into the original one .... far easier:
https://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f27/make-zero-clearance-throat-plate-insert-10147/




:vs_cool:
What a BRILLIANT solution!
 
#6 ·
I like and recommend SawStop table saws. They are superb table saws to use, and they are the only table saws in the US with a safety blade brake/retraction mechanism. (SawStop got a court injunction to stop the importation of Bosch REAXX saws into the US. I know - I had one.) Regarding kickbacks, SawStop table saws have the same safety features as other table saws; they are no better or worse. SawStop table saws are more adjustable than any other table saw on the market, too.

As mentioned by @NoThankyou, I am unhappy that SawStop's founder, Steve Gass, could never find a way to license his technology with other table saw manufacturers. I do not know why negotiations failed; the other manufacturers may not be blameless. As a consequence, we have had nearly 20 years of preventable table saw injuries, including people I know. I do not know what it would have taken to reach an agreement, and I acknowledge that the patent rights belong to the inventor. I wish that Steve Gass had looked to Dr. Jonas Salk for inspiration. Salk invented the polio vaccine and saved countless people from paralyzing illness and death. One of my parents was a polio victim. Salk made his polio vaccine invention free to the world. Somehow, someway, Steve Gass should have found a path to widespread deployment of his technology. Instead, his solution was to lobby the US government to mandate SawStop technology through OSHA without a reasonable license agreement in place. That would have forced his competitors to accept unreasonable license terms or drop out of the market, giving Gass an effective monopoly.

I use, like, and recommend SawStop table saws, and SawStop can have my money. For Steve Gass, it is blood money, like 30 pieces of silver. I believe that Steve Gass cares more about Steve Gass than the woodworkers here on WoodworkingTalk and elsewhere. Whatever he may say, his actions speak for themselves. Shame on him for not finding a way to license his technology, and double-shame on him for lobbying OUR government to coerce others into giving him a monopoly. I hope that we see his technology widely deployed as soon as his patents expire. The first patents expire in August 2021, but I have been told by others here that SawStop has ways to extend them and exclude competitors. I keep my fingers crossed.
 
#7 ·
Sawstop is great technology, there is no denying that, and for those that can afford to purchase a new saw it is well worth considering and in some cases such as schools it is pretty well essential.

We often hear their technology compared to seat belts, and how in a few years just like seat belts nobody will consider using a saw without the technology. This is where the Kool-Aide factor comes in, seat belts protect you from accidents caused by other drivers, no matter how safe a driver you are, you have no control over other reckless or drunk drivers on the road. On the other hand you are the sole operator of your saw, you are in control of the situation, any accident is caused by you, so in most cases safe practices will keep you safe.

Power tools need respect, but they should not be feared, if you are using a tool that scares you shut it off, you are going to hurt yourself, if all tools scare you find another hobby, operating any machine is not for everybody. If you need a saw that is designed not to hurt you you are in the wrong business because something else is likely going to get you eventually.
 
#12 ·
With sincere respect to @FrankC and others, I disagree.

Frank and others believe that if you follow good practices and care, you can avoid a table saw injury, even over a lifetime of woodworking. They believe that you can teach yourself habits so ingrained that you will never experience a table saw injury.

If FrankC were somehow magically assured that the roads would be totally empty with no drunks or anyone else driving around, would Frank drive his family without buckling the seat belts? After all, Frank would be "the sole operator of his car, in control of the situation, any accident is caused by Frank, so in most cases safe practices will keep him safe." Do you agree with that?

We are human, subject to human frailties, fallibilities, and the ravages of age. Even if I were the sole driver on the road, I would still buckle my safety belt, along with safety belts for my spouse and children. I take that for granted, don't you?

I know too many well-respected, well-regarded woodworkers who have sustained serious table saw injuries. They lived a lifetime of following good safety practices. All it took was one mistake. It is heartbreaking to see.

I view SawStop as an insurance policy against certain types of table saw injuries. SawStop should be considered insurance against that one mistake in a lifetime.

I hope that nobody views SawStop as encouraging sloppy safety habits. If so, they miss the point completely. I hope that nobody I know will ever trigger a SawStop. In an ideal world, none of us would ever trigger our SawStop, but it is nice to know that we are covered.
 
#8 ·
I agree with many of the comments above about how great the SawStop tech is, and I have recommended it for a long before my own accident (click at your own discretion, not allowed to post these pics here). And also agree with the distaste for the ethics of Gass, but that is not the discussion here...

Reading all the mentions above about proper use of the included safety devices for your saw, I also agree, they do a great job when used properly. However, in my case use of a sled required removal of the splitter/guard, and then the neglect on my part to fully utilize the most important safety device, the one between my ears, resulted in my first TS injury after about 40 yrs of hobby woodworking. As you can see below, it didn't take much blade exposure to do so much damage. Though my typing is getting better now that I have a little feeling back in the 'dead' areas.

As I looked back over my medical bills, I was first very happy about the quality of my insurance coverage, as I am now only out enough money to have ONLY bought a SawStop Contractor model with most of the extras. If I did not have that coverage, it would have run me well over the cost of a full 5hp professional model with all accessories. Over $10K for all the Drs., ER, ambulance, and followup visits.

Finger 6 sled by Mr_Dodis, on Flickr

Mike "Dodis"
 
#9 ·
In about 50 years of woodworking I have had only one blood letting event, not counting the little dings, a Sawstop wouldn't have prevented it, a riving knife would have though. I was cutting a bunch of stickers for a flitch cut walnut trunk, and I was cutting fast and not thinking and I let the push stick hit the backside of the blade, it hit so hard it buried the push stick into the heel of my thumb, no major damage but I was out of commission for a few weeks
 
#10 ·
It was not my intent to start a thread about Saw Stop products. My intent was to encourage new woodworkers shopping for a table saw to consider the safest saw rather than one that meets the budget.

As for why other saw manufacturers don't license, it is more than the license fees.
1 ~ With a single source for the technology the manufacturer is hanging their business success on a single supplier.
2 ~ If the manufacturer doesn't offer retrofit kits for every saw model they have ever made, they are open to a lawsuit.
3 ~ Obviously Saw Stop could alter the license costs at will.

I read of a civil suit, I believe in Boston, where a worker using a different brand portable job site saw suffered an amputation. The logic was that the manufacturer of the saw "Could have" licensed the Saw Stop product. It didn't matter that there was no fence, no splitter, no anti-kick back pawls and the worker had never used a table saw prior to this incident.
 
#11 ·
It was not my intent to start a thread about Saw Stop products. My intent was to encourage new woodworkers shopping for a table saw to consider the safest saw rather than one that meets the budget.

As for why other saw manufacturers don't license, it is more than the license fees.
1 ~ With a single source for the technology the manufacturer is hanging their business success on a single supplier.
2 ~ If the manufacturer doesn't offer retrofit kits for every saw model they have ever made, they are open to a lawsuit.
3 ~ Obviously Saw Stop could alter the license costs at will.

I read of a civil suit, I believe in Boston, where a worker using a different brand portable job site saw suffered an amputation. The logic was that the manufacturer of the saw "Could have" licensed the Saw Stop product. It didn't matter that there was no fence, no splitter, no anti-kick back pawls and the worker had never used a table saw prior to this incident.[/QUO


"Not my intent"......Your trying to get me kicked off woodworking talk aren't you...
 
#13 ·
So, by applying the "Saw Stop" logic, and assuming we all bought a super safe table saw, every other tool in our shops is over the top dangerous because we could stick out hand in a blade or a bit. I assure you that my hands often come quite close to my band saw blade when scrolling. And my fingers are perilously close on occasion when drilling (ever had a bit catch and spin the work like an airplane propeller?). I've been what some would call close to my 12" miter saw blade when cutting small trim pieces. And oh lord, don't even get me started on the dreaded radial arm saw (my favorite power tool!). Then there's the shaper, scroll saw, jointer and planer. Well, maybe not so much the planer. You'd have to be a complete dufus to get to that set of knives.

The point is that regardless if you already have, or wish you could afford, or even just want a Saw Stop table saw, be aware that it would/ will only protect you for ONE single operation in the shop. Every other move you make, power tool or not, exposes you to plenty enough danger to either shred or take a finger or two off. Some tools are actually rather inherently dangerous (the big ol shaper can scare me half to death at times). Owning a wood shop, metal shop, welding shop, or practicing most any other hobby or vocation exposes you to an amount of risk. How you manage that risk is what is way the more important than anything else in your shop. If a Saw Stop makes you feel safer, then justify it as only one small part of your risk management. However, one "ultra" safe tool will never be the end all safety savior in the shop.

The thing between your ears and careful planning are the ultimate safety saviors in your shop.
 
#15 ·
I am on Frank's side on this .....

I've already stated that Saw Stop is the best available technolgy, BUT is it beyond the means of many home shops. So, you need to use accessory devices, splitters, riving knives, zero clearance throat plates, blade covers, etc. at all times when practical. Understanding why kickback occurs and the forces involved will go along way to prevent it.

I can't afford a Saw stop now that I am retired and on pensions and SS, and that would mean I would end up with a total of 7 (seven) table saws when I am already "overstocked". After 55 years of "practice", I know how to operate my saw(s) safely and when I am not physically and mentally ready, I will not use it.

Preaching to the choir will not change anyone's opinion, especially mine. If I do something stupid, then I'm prepared to make the necessary adjustments ...... what ever that means.

Mixing driving with woodworking is not a good analogy. There are no drunks using any power tools in my shop. There is no one else in my shop 99.9% of the time. Visitors are not allowed for safety reasons. I am the sole operator of all my equipment, but I realize that not all home shops have this situation, so precautions MUST be taken. When I do need additional help, I use my son as the support person.
He's a certified Master mechanic with tons of experience using tools and heavy equipment, but I realize that not every woodworker has such experienced help.

:vs_cool:
 
#16 ·
I think I got more hrs on the saw than anybody but there is no guarantee no matter how aware you are to the dangers you can still get hurt...

I've seen it and it happened to me.

As long as we don't say "cant" I'm all good... the only way you can ysay that is too not operate one in the first place..Rebel
 
#20 ·
It's older than that. Patents last 17 years and were about 18 months from the end for Saw Stop. But they clearly are more about legal tricks than tools, so we can expect them to do whatever they can to stop other safe saw methods. The management isn't interested in user safety. don't kid yourselves. Yes, the saw is excellent, but overpriced and uses a destructive method where the Bosch system is non destructive. Which is better, one or two?



I think Bosch management is much smarter and will find a way to license their system to everyone who wants it. They could license it cheap, license others to make the device and put the Saw Stop out of business for good. Financially a little from a lot beats a lot from a few. I was a business writer for five years and detest such business practices and the sleazy executives that perpetrate them. Srong letter to follow...
 
#21 ·
Good thoughts. I would like to add, from my own experience, the most important. If you are tired or fatigued you have no business around a saw. A lot on your mind, no business around a saw. Do not allow yourself to become distracted. Fortunately I still have all 10, but I came very close to a serious injury one day. I was cutting a good number of tenons on a tenoning jig. My wife came into the shop to ask me a few questions. Rather than completing my task, I stopped to talk to her (as a good husband should). In doing so, I lost track of where I was and as she was walking out I turned my saw on and pushed another piece on the tenoning jig through the saw. The problem was in being distracted I did not realize that I never tightened the piece in the jig. It bound up in the blade and fired back. I was not even directly behind. The small piece of 1x2x6 flew back hitting me, fortunately on the flat, in the abdomen. The torgue was great enough that even though it hit me in the belly, it bruised my kidney and I was urinating blood for a few days, scary. Now, when someone comes into my shop I put up my hand in a stop signal. Complete my task, make a mental note of where I am, and then we can talk.
 
#24 ·
That's a great question that makes me think. My response is:

The additional cost of a SawStop is well worth the reduction in risk that it gets you. As I have said before, you should treat it like an insurance policy. I realize that some people disagree with my assessment of the values, and that's okay - we can agree to disagree. There are those who cannot afford a SawStop today. I would not ever exclude them from woodworking, but caution them to fully understand the risks and the vigilance required to stay safe, especially over the long term. It is that expectation of perfection over the long term that is my primary concern. I hope that they aspire to save up for a SawStop when they can. It is my fondest dream that the SawStop patents will expire or be licensed in a way to make affordable safety saws available to all, making the question moot.
 
#26 ·
There is a Community College near by. In '05, maybe '06 I helped to install 10 industrial 5 HP Saw Stop cabinet saws. At AWFS in Las Vegas, last July, I had an interesting conversation with the Woodworking Department Head. We were chatting how things have gone since I left. Safety at this CC is above everything. I witnessed a student dropped by the instructor because the student would not pay attention nor listen to safety issues. This school has never had an amputation in the woodworking department in over 40 years of teaching woodworking.

This safety culture is one of the very few good things that have come out of political gamesmanship. There is an individual that has been attempting to shut down the woodworking department for years. So the safety policy of no blood is a very good one.

Naturally I asked if they had any blade drops on the Saw Stop machines. The Department Head's answer was, "Dozens, more than I can remember." I was shocked knowing the safety culture at the CC. He went on to explain that only one produced blood. And the blood was more of a scratch than a cut. He said that people had touched the blade, touched the blade with measuring tapes, wet or treated wood, touched the blade with the fence but no real damage.

I am thankful that I was taught the CC's safety culture. I practice it every time I am in the shop. If I ever get to the point of buying a replacement for my Unisaw, it will be a Saw Stop. And I still have an intense dislike for Stephen Gass.
 
#27 ·
I still do lot of outside projects with fairly wet wood. If I forgot to turn off the stop, it would cost up to $200 to replace the cartridge and the blade, more if I had a premium blade. So if I turn the feature off, then I have a nice saw that's overpriced compared to many other saws.



The most important safety feature then becomes the Grripper, which is my prefered feed device and that I use ALL the time. Many accidents happen becaus people take off the splitter, causing twisty wood to grab the blade, or by trying to force the feed using your hands to push. Just don't do that and use the Grripper and you have greatly reduced your risk. I think this is important because so many hobbyists have saws without the stop feature. They are the ones who really need to protect themselves by using all the cautinary methods that have been posted here. Being cavalier about working with ultra share steel cutters spinning at 100 mph is just plain stupid. SawStop's management, like all management, is trying to find ways to force people to buy their product. There is nothing that could build more resistance to a product faster than that.

I'm not going to pop $4000 to replace my extremely good $1400 Laguna, but I do have the safety features in place, two Grrippers, push sticks, blade guard or Shark Guard when I can, sleds and many other jigs to keep a safe distance from the blade. If I had a SawStop, I'd still use every other safety method I do now. And, I'd take the time to preplan every cut I make before setting up and making every cut.
 
#29 ·
I just want to add that everybody is right here. I have strong feelings about SawStop and have made them known, but I respect others' opinions. We can agree to disagree on some points and still be friends.

Just because I am a proponent of safety retraction mechanisms on table saws doesn't mean that I follow or encourage lesser safety practices as a result. I use blade guards, GRR-Rippers, featherboards, and other safety mechanisms with a SawStop table saw just as I would with any other table saw.

For example, many people remove the blade guards and never replace them. I use the blade guards whenever I can. We can agree to disagree about that, but still enjoy woodworking together.
 
#31 ·
I own Saw stop Pro as well as a Dewalt contractor table saw. I also have routers, joiners, Band Saws chop saws, planers, jig saws, etc. Aside from the Saw Stop, I have about 100 other ways to maim myself.

What is the point of investing money on a table saw that protects you if you are careless with your other tools as well? My Saw stop is a great saw but I didn't purchase it for the sake of keeping my fingers, I purchased it because it is a great saw with overall great features. I still use it respectively the same as I use any piece of machinery. I don't wish to rely on a brake system to save my fingers, I would rather rely on good safe work practices.

Pick a saw with great features that is proven from a great company. Think of the brake system on the Saw Stop as an airbag in a car. You hope you never need it. Just because you have airbags doesn't mean you can be reckless on the road and take risks.

As a side note, using my built sled, the brake system on my saw engaged and ruined my nice crosscut diablo blade as well as the brake system needing to be changed out.
 
#32 · (Edited)
People don't purchase a sawstop because they want to be careless....No matter how careful you are accidents happens

I used an the sawstop industrial for 5+ years. Nothing special about it. You didn't buy it for the safety feature but fit and finish? Okay I believe ya...... Rebel
 
#39 ·
I don't know about anyone else but there are two subjects around here that are getting really tiresome reading about, Sawstop and Radial Arm Saws.

There is enough information out there that has already been discussed about both of them that there is really nothing new to add, we all have our opinions, another post is not going to change that. Some days I think my signature says it all.
 
#42 ·
I have been woodworking since the mid 80's and still have all of my digits and I imagine that a lot others do as well. I dislike the lawyer that started it and will not buy one. I also don't like the fact that I have to buy an expensive cartridge and new blade. If one of the other major manufacturers comes out with their version I MIGHT consider one IF the price isn't outrageous.
 
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