New jointer and ME too! Help please. - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
 
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post #1 of 15 Old 05-06-2018, 06:43 PM Thread Starter
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New jointer and ME too! Help please.

EDGE jointing question:

Just bought a new jointer / planer-- Cuttech 8" wide with spiral carbide knives.
I believe I have it set up correctly. Glued up a simple table top and the 3/4" boards all fit smoothly and tightly just laying there before the glue up. NO gaps, flush. So, figured I had the jointer figured out. That was with walnut. I doubt this matters but changed over to cherry and ran through the same basic steps: face joint the concave face till flat, edge joint one side, go to planer and make parallel face side, joint 2nd side.

With first two 3/4" boards after completing what I thought should be a good process found I had about 1/32" space from a BOW in the long direction on one board. Specifically, looking down at the two boards as they lay edge-on with each other, about 36" long, the ends touched but there is a long bowed gap between the boards narrowing to zero as approaching either end of the long dimension. I was best able to view the concavity of this edge by placing a straight edge over the edge and view the gap. Looks the same with the straight edge as with the two boards edfe-facing each other.
NOTHING I could do was able to remove this gap, including:
1) running multiple more times through the jointer paying special attention to keep pressure mostly on the infeed table, never over the knives, transferring pressure to outfield table only at end of the cut.
2) Table saw straightening: using factory edge of a piece of long plywood I screwed the board down with this concave board facing the saw blade and the other edge parallel to the factory edge, ran through the table saw, then jointed the face cut with the saw.

On another piece of cherry I followed a similar process and found one edge was concave and the other convex. The convex side jointed fine and I was able to get a flat face down the entire 40" length. Tried multiple passes with jointer and can NOT get the concave face flat. What can I be doing wrong? Driving me nuts.

Last edited by schreib; 05-06-2018 at 06:46 PM.
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post #2 of 15 Old 05-06-2018, 06:49 PM
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Iím no expert here, but you should be transferring your hands to the out feed side of the jointer as soon as the board passes over the knives. Then put pressure on the outfeed side for the rest of the cut.


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post #3 of 15 Old 05-06-2018, 07:02 PM
where's my table saw?
 
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This should have worked just fine

Quote:
2) Table saw straightening: using factory edge of a piece of long plywood I screwed the board down with this concave board facing the saw blade and the other edge parallel to the factory edge, ran through the table saw, then jointed the face cut with the saw.

To get a straight edge using a "guide" you must maintain a constant contact with the fence from start to finish AND the guide board should be about 8" longer at both ends than your workpiece. Furthermore, your table saw fence should be as long as possible. A fence that's too short with give you curves, just like a jointer table that's too short.....

Jointing a curve out of a long board on the joiner requires long tables. Otherwise the curve will follow the far edge of the table and droop down creating another curve. I use a straight line rip sled/jig for straightening the edges on my boards because its 10 X faster and just as accurate.

http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f2/st...ig-used-29290/




The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)

Last edited by woodnthings; 05-06-2018 at 08:18 PM.
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post #4 of 15 Old 05-06-2018, 07:39 PM
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1/32" is insufficient to worry about in what you describe. This is woodworking, not metal working.

George
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post #5 of 15 Old 05-06-2018, 07:43 PM
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When the middle of a board is concave, hereís what I do. I take a metal straight edge and lay over the concave. Mark on both sides of the board with a pencil where the concave starts and where it ends.
Set the jointer depth to about 1/32Ē of cut. Turn the jointer on and start the cut at the pencil mark to the end on both ends. You are not cutting in the center or the concave, only from the mark to the ends. Check again with the metal straight edge to see if you need to repeat.

If you don't have time to do it right the first time, when will you have time to do it over?
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post #6 of 15 Old 05-06-2018, 08:02 PM
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New jointer and ME too! Help please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by schreib View Post
EDGE jointing question:

Just bought a new jointer / planer-- Cuttech 8" wide with spiral carbide knives.
I believe I have it set up correctly. Glued up a simple table top and the 3/4" boards all fit smoothly and tightly just laying there before the glue up. NO gaps, flush. So, figured I had the jointer figured out. That was with walnut. I doubt this matters but changed over to cherry and ran through the same basic steps: face joint the concave face till flat, edge joint one side, go to planer and make parallel face side, joint 2nd side.

With first two 3/4" boards after completing what I thought should be a good process found I had about 1/32" space from a BOW in the long direction on one board. Specifically, looking down at the two boards as they lay edge-on with each other, about 36" long, the ends touched but there is a long bowed gap between the boards narrowing to zero as approaching either end of the long dimension. I was best able to view the concavity of this edge by placing a straight edge over the edge and view the gap. Looks the same with the straight edge as with the two boards edfe-facing each other.
NOTHING I could do was able to remove this gap, including:
1) running multiple more times through the jointer paying special attention to keep pressure mostly on the infeed table, never over the knives, transferring pressure to outfield table only at end of the cut.
2) Table saw straightening: using factory edge of a piece of long plywood I screwed the board down with this concave board facing the saw blade and the other edge parallel to the factory edge, ran through the table saw, then jointed the face cut with the saw.

On another piece of cherry I followed a similar process and found one edge was concave and the other convex. The convex side jointed fine and I was able to get a flat face down the entire 40" length. Tried multiple passes with jointer and can NOT get the concave face flat. What can I be doing wrong? Driving me nuts.


I need some clarification. Where you described your process of jointing one face, jointing an edge, planing the other face parallel to the jointed face is all good, but I donít understand you trying to joint the second edge, one would usually cut the second edge off with a table saw assuring parallel edges, jointing the second edge assures nothing but a straight edge.

Further down you talk about concave and convex faces and edges and start confusing me again so Iím just making some assumptions here. When I joint an edge with a concave or convex shape, I prefer jointing the concave edge. Iíll take a straight edge and draw a line down the edge of the board, giving me an idea how much needs to come off the ends to get a relatively straight edge. Then Iíll joint just one end of the board until I get close to my straight line, then Iíll turn the board around and do the other end. After a few passes Iíll joint the entire edge. After that, I cut off the convex side with my table saw.

If I try jointing the convex edge I find it harder keeping the jointer from following curve of the board.


In woodworking there is always more then one way to accomplish something.
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post #7 of 15 Old 05-07-2018, 10:54 AM
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I like using a jack plane to get a bowed board close to straight, and finish it up on the jointer after that.

Dave in CT, USA
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post #8 of 15 Old 05-07-2018, 12:11 PM Thread Starter
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George, I have to laugh. I have been called out before by my neighbor, a carpenter. I am an engineer and can NOT help it! Ha! I will try harder. Just the same, the boards I jointed earlier met flush all down their edges, not gaps at all. They looked like one piece of wood. I am not depending on the glue clamps to force them into flat. . .

Last edited by schreib; 05-07-2018 at 12:34 PM.
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post #9 of 15 Old 05-07-2018, 12:13 PM Thread Starter
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Interesting. I was thinking along those lines but never tried it. I will, after further tuning my tables if not successful there. thanks!
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post #10 of 15 Old 05-07-2018, 12:19 PM Thread Starter
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"I need some clarification. Where you described your process of jointing one face, jointing an edge, planing the other face parallel to the jointed face is all good, but I donít understand you trying to joint the second edge, one would usually cut the second edge off with a table saw assuring parallel edges, jointing the second edge assures nothing but a straight edge." per TerryQ

Well, I AM a newbie. Missed a step: should have put in there rip 2nd edge on TS, then jointing that 2nd one, right?

Your 2nd point about using a straight edge to show how far down each end to joint, then joint ea end separately, then full edge jointing. Makes LOTS of sense. Something I can try. Thanks!
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post #11 of 15 Old 05-07-2018, 12:28 PM Thread Starter
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Woodnthings: I had actually seen your jig setup before this posting and will likely use that in the future. Thanks for additional tips. I had a factory edge from the plywood that was plenty long enough and I really did try to keep it flush to the fence. One thing that is a problem, which you point out, is my table saw is a cheap $140 Delta portable with a tiny short fence. I am aware of that concern you mention and am considering a decent one now, of course.

However, I have also been reading on other websites and found a detail on setting up a jointer which I was not aware of: If the tables are set up where one or the other of them falls away a bit from the knife area you can create concave joints. SO. The main thing I need to do is re-do the work I thought was complete in my table setup. This morning I found, that in fact, the infeed table falls away a bit. This could be just this simple. Also, it appears my "new" Cuttech 8" jointer may have problems itself: My straight edge laid on both tables indicates that both tables fall away from the straight edge itself-- indicating the tables were not machined flat! I have a new $40 straight edge on order to be sure.

"Tables that sag at one end or the other (or both) will cause concave cuts." Wood magazine on the web.
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post #12 of 15 Old 05-07-2018, 12:29 PM Thread Starter
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Maylar:
thanks. I need to buy more tools. I don't have a Jack plane.

Last edited by schreib; 05-07-2018 at 12:32 PM.
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post #13 of 15 Old 05-07-2018, 03:28 PM
where's my table saw?
 
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Jointer setup with dovetail ways

Quote:
Originally Posted by schreib View Post
Woodnthings:

However, I have also been reading on other websites and found a detail on setting up a jointer which I was not aware of: If the tables are set up where one or the other of them falls away a bit from the knife area you can create concave joints. SO. The main thing I need to do is re-do the work I thought was complete in my table setup. This morning I found, that in fact, the infeed table falls away a bit. This could be just this simple. Also, it appears my "new" Cuttech 8" jointer may have problems itself: My straight edge laid on both tables indicates that both tables fall away from the straight edge itself-- indicating the tables were not machined flat! I have a new $40 straight edge on order to be sure.

"Tables that sag at one end or the other (or both) will cause concave cuts." Wood magazine on the web.
Falling a way, or drooping tables is an adjustment issue, not a machining issue.

Here's another video, but in the first minute, there is a mistake in the wording. Charles says it creates a "parallel" surface which is NOT true. Jointers can not make 2 surfaces parallel. Also in at 4:25, another of the same mistake. He doesn't mention it, but he is flipping the board end for end to remove the material more quickly than making several long passes to eliminate the curve.

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)

Last edited by woodnthings; 05-07-2018 at 03:37 PM.
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post #14 of 15 Old 05-08-2018, 09:12 AM Thread Starter
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Well, in fact, both can happen. In this case it did. Please see photo attached of the ~0.008" gap created by straight edge on my right side jointer table. Straight edge is ONLY setting on the right side with pressure near cutter blade end. Note: to the left there is no gap for 10"; it starts "falling" in flatness to the right as a result of poor machining. I sent this and other photos to manufacturer(Cutech) and they are shipping me TWO new tabletops ground to closer tolerances. Their spec is 0.008". I was quite surprised at this tolerance level because grinding can be done easily to fractions of mils. They told me that table saw specs are looser-- 0.015". I was surprised they offered to send me two new tables. What if my Staples SS straight edge was off? Well, I put the same straight edge on BOTH tables and the right falls off to the right and the left falls off to the left. Both falling off away from their bolt pattern, but the straight edge was pointing the same way on both comparisons with the 18" end on the right. So, if it was bowed on one end it would have been noticed. Just the same, I have a new $40 straight edge on order with + /- 0.002" straightness over 32".

Besides this I had also NOT set up the two tables perfectly coplanar and this contributed also. But, per my note above, even after re-working the level, cherry boards would not meet up consistently flush after jointing.
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post #15 of 15 Old 05-08-2018, 09:59 AM Thread Starter
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Those were good videos. thanks. My jointer, Cutech 8", is a very simple planer but has some nice features like a set of 1/2" wide carbide bits(Knives) arranged in a quasi-spiral pattern around the cutter mandrel cylinder. The cutter stays in place the knives never are adjusted other than turning 90į for a fresh cutting surface when worn. BOTH tables however are meant to be adjusted, mostly infeed, but only the infeed is dovetail slide infinitely adjustable up to 1/8" cut. Both are set with vertical adjusting cylinders around the bolts in the bolt pattern at four points.

The 2nd video was best and I was able to learn from that how best to remove from both ends first, then do a full pass. I had not been doing that. thanks again.
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