My Red Oak Is Bleeding After Staining? - Page 2 - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
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post #21 of 37 Old 01-07-2014, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bandman View Post
This is exactly why I don't use Minwax stain. Use something like Old Masters or Mohawk.
Not a big fan of Minwax either. I did an entire staircase of red oak with Zars and never once had a bleeding issue. Try them along with Old Masters or Mohawk.
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post #22 of 37 Old 01-07-2014, 06:06 PM
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Paste wood filler. That's what I was taught to use 30+ years ago when I was learning how to finish open-pour species. Tint it before applying with a little of the stain.

Not sure if anyone even sells it any more.
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post #23 of 37 Old 01-07-2014, 06:31 PM
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Totally agree with you guys above on stain choices. Minwax is junk, so is Cabot or whatever the hell Lowes carries. I didn't know any better until I tried Old Masters. What a huge difference in performance. You could have achieved a black like that in one application with an Old Masters gel stain, or probably even their wiping stain with 15-20 mins of penetration time. Try it, you'll see what we mean.

Also, like stated above, definitely do 2 coats for the epoxy. Air bubbles (from an unsealed surface) in a thick pour will totally ruin your finish.

Someone above mentioned brushing a finish on over dried stain floating on the surface. He's correct in saying that it may push the stain around. Reason being the solvent in the finish will re-dissolve any stain that has not absorbed into the wood. I've never poured epoxy onto stained wood before, but I'd be concerned about getting poor bonding with all that oily stain sitting on the surface.
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post #24 of 37 Old 01-07-2014, 06:35 PM
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For black black I use india ink followed by the top coat of your choice. Craft stores sell bottles of it.
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post #25 of 37 Old 01-08-2014, 01:09 AM
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Thanks Howie, I just finished the stain process the project is drying right now. All looks good, I was a little more conservative during the stain application in hopes to prevent excessive 'bleed back' this time. I'll give the parts a few days to get totally dry before applying the clear finish & watch for wet expansion spots.
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post #26 of 37 Old 01-08-2014, 01:30 AM
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The large, open pores (vessels composed of stacks of vessel element wood cells) will suck up anything.
A paste sealer would have plugged those without interfering with the overall staining characreristics of red oak.
SOP for flooring.

All that you can do now is as others have suggested.
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post #27 of 37 Old 03-13-2016, 12:23 PM
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Hi Guys first time member, glad I found this post on google search. We redid our foyer and I layed a combo of tile and 12mm Laminate, then while looking at home depot found the red oak molding was only about 1.40 a foot so decided to get rid of the beat looking pine molding and go with hardwood. We had a new door installed last year so I got the Sherwin Williams classic stain in a fruitwood custom mix to match the builders stain, which my old neighbor found out that is where the local builder in our town goes for stain. I did a test piece and experienced the bleed but just wiped down twice then it stopped. I did a light sanding this morning and did second coat but isn't as dark looking as how it looked on pine stain. I did let sit the full 15 minutes which is what SW suggests. Also prepped wood properly using 120 grit sandpaper and wiping down with tack cloth.

Any tips? When I do the rest of the wood thinking for not doing any sanding or steel wool and just applying again for better penetration. for the pine molding around door I ended up doing like 5 coats to get to match the other molding. hoping I don't have to do for the red oak. when you llok at attached pic bottom wood is new oak baseboard two coats, middle quarter round oak is 1 coat ( may not be red oak so thats why color difference?), and top is old molding.

Thanks for you help.
Bill
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post #28 of 37 Old 03-13-2016, 02:44 PM
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You should never let stain set for 15 minutes. With any brand stain you wipe it off immediately after applying the stain and only apply one coat. This is the reason the wood is bleeding stain, it's too saturated. It will eventually quit but you have to keep an eye on it and keep wiping the excess stain off until it quits bleeding. There is a real risk when doing multiple coats of stain you allow some to dry on the surface. When that happens the finish will adhere to the stain instead of the wood and peal off.

If the color isn't dark enough use a darker stain or go over it with a dye stain to supplement the color. Sanding the wood with a more coarse sandpaper will also allow it to stain darker.
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post #29 of 37 Old 03-14-2016, 11:11 AM
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Ok thanks, from the previous posts here it just sounded like red oak does bleed because of larger pores. So then why does Sherwin Williams suggest 5-15 minutes and Varathane say 2-3 minutes? I know the SW is oil based stain and I think My varathane is water based? And as previous posts said keep checking it, which i did and ended up with two wipes over 3 hours and it stopped. When I built our island the sides were birch veneer plywood, it did not bleed but was only a 1/16" thick so maybe that had something to do with it. That we used varathane and let it sit for 1-2 minutes.

It's funny we now have 2 extra quarts of stain as neither one came out dark enough for the transition pieces. I ended up getting a minwax espresso which gave me more brown than the american walnut and another one which were much redder than we wanted for the hickory floor color.

Straining is an artform!
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post #30 of 37 Old 03-14-2016, 10:49 PM
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Originally Posted by mdb007 View Post
Ok thanks, from the previous posts here it just sounded like red oak does bleed because of larger pores. So then why does Sherwin Williams suggest 5-15 minutes and Varathane say 2-3 minutes? I know the SW is oil based stain and I think My varathane is water based? And as previous posts said keep checking it, which i did and ended up with two wipes over 3 hours and it stopped. When I built our island the sides were birch veneer plywood, it did not bleed but was only a 1/16" thick so maybe that had something to do with it. That we used varathane and let it sit for 1-2 minutes.

It's funny we now have 2 extra quarts of stain as neither one came out dark enough for the transition pieces. I ended up getting a minwax espresso which gave me more brown than the american walnut and another one which were much redder than we wanted for the hickory floor color.

Straining is an artform!
Is it Sherwin Williams or an employee in the store that said 15 minutes? It sounds like someone that doesn't have a clue on how to finish wood. The wood is only going to accept just so much stain and letting it sit 15 minutes will cause much more problems than it could possibly help. In hot weather the stain would dry on like paint in 15 minutes. If they told you to put varathane over stain after 2 or 3 minutes drying time they were deliberately trying to sabotage your project. The only stain you can do that with is an alcohol based dye stain. Any oil stain takes a minimum of an hour drying time before you topcoat. The hour is warm dry weather. Cool and or damp weather takes more drying time. Soaking the wood for 15 minutes in stain would take 24 hours drying time at best.

You would have less problems with birch bleeding than oak however you would have more problems with the wood blotching letting the stain soak longer.

Yes staining is an artform. Sometimes you have to tinker with stain for hours to match the color. The lighting in your shop can also screw with the stain work. When I think I have the stain mixed right I take the sample out in the direct sun to compare the color. If it matches under artificial light as well as sun light I go with it. Still sometimes the color looks off when you start sealing it. If it's too red you can spray a light green dye over the stain and it will tone down the red. There is also red dyes if the color isn't red enough. These can be used between the coats of your finish and if you don't go overboard with it looks like your oil stain was right all along.
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post #31 of 37 Old 03-15-2016, 01:07 PM
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Hi Steve,
The SW can says 5-15 minutes then wipe, the Varathane stain can says let it sit 2-3 minutes then wipe. no one said to put Varathane over the other stain. I do use the Varathane poly for my top coat which i like. And when i did the test pieces the other day. it was raining and damp about 60% humidity but the stain stayed wet for 10 minutes and i was able to wipe. i didn't over apply either where it was pooling just took a nice brush and wiped on the SW stain..

I'm going to go to the SW store tomorrow and talk to a manager to see if i can get the correct stain color that the builder used in all the homes in neighborhood. and taking a non faded sample of the old trim as well.

And yes I know what you mean about lighting. We did 5 samples of paint for the wall because none really seemed to look like the sample and the 5th one the wife and i finally agreed on but it's more minty colored than i like.

Here is a link to the SW technical sheet. it says you have 15-20 minutes at most to work with the stain to accomplish the finish you want.
http://www.sherwin-williams.com/docu.../035777504956/

Last edited by mdb007; 03-15-2016 at 01:10 PM. Reason: additional info
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post #32 of 37 Old 03-15-2016, 03:59 PM
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The link doesn't work for me. It re-directs me to an Adobe software site.

What ever Sherwin Williams say it must be the absolute limit the stain can be worked. It can't mean it's a good idea to do it for every condition. In your case the wood is over saturated with stain is the reason it was bleeding. The color would have been the same if you wiped it off immediately or wait 15 minutes. The sooner you can get stain wiped off the better.

The stain you already have they can add more pigment to the stain to darken it. I'm sure they know what pigments are already in it. The more concentrated the pigment is the darker it will stain. Minwax on the other hand you can't add pigment to. With Minwax it can only be darkened by adding a dye stain. You could also take a sample of the color you need and some scrap wood and they will mix the stain for you to match. I have no idea what they charge for the service but they do that.
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post #33 of 37 Old 03-16-2016, 02:37 AM
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<<The link doesn't work for me. It re-directs me to an Adobe software site. >>
Steve, you need to have Adobe Reader (free) on your computer to open that link because it's a .pdf file. It opened immediately for me.
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post #34 of 37 Old 03-16-2016, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by dodgeboy77 View Post
<<The link doesn't work for me. It re-directs me to an Adobe software site. >>
Steve, you need to have Adobe Reader (free) on your computer to open that link because it's a .pdf file. It opened immediately for me.
I guess I will have to do without then. I'm not downloading anything. Last month I got a virus that took out my computer and printer both. I'm just getting started with a new computer now. And yes I had virus protection software too. Actually three of them on my computer and the virus wrote itself into windows and the virus software didn't see a thing.
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post #35 of 37 Old 03-17-2016, 12:45 PM
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I'm just going to get another quart of a darker shade mixed tonight. I did a piece of the door casing this morning, let it sit about 2-3 minutes and wiped, way too light and orange. It could be the red oak compared to the pine I am sure. I talked to manager of the sherwin williams store and he said yes the builder in our town who built many of the homes does use their stain but won't let them keep it on file! so they bring a board in for a match on new batches! that is so stupid! What a big PITA!

Thanks for all your help guys.

Bill
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post #36 of 37 Old 03-17-2016, 06:33 PM
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You have two options to get a darker color. 1) stop sanding at a lower grit 2) use a darker stain. Wipe it on give it a few minutes to soak in then wipe off the excess. Let the stain dry preferably for 24 hours before top coating. If you are going for a darker look try an oil based topcoat over your oil based stain. Water based too coats will wash out darker colors typically. You can seal the wood first with a wash coat of 25% finish and 75% of the appropriate thinner. That step might solve some of your bleed out. Let your topcoat dry an hour or two after applying, put two coats in then knock it down with some steel wool and hit it one last time. If you use oil based poly you can thin it some with some mineral spirits to get it to flow out better.
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post #37 of 37 Old 03-17-2016, 08:36 PM
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I went to Sherwin williams tonight and the guy steered me toward their BAC wiping stain, he said he prefers that to their classic stain. And after trying some different additives and removing some red got close to what I want for the stain color little more on the brown side. about to do a test board now and cross my fingers! Some of the previous posts suggest that red oak bleeds by nature. Another test board i did this morning before work and even with a good wipe down still had a tiny bleed when i got home. I am going to have to sand down and put the new stain on anyway so no big deal.

Ok here are pics, the light board was with original fruitwood based stain, i did that this morning. the second was with darker stain based on chestnut I just finished in the last 1/2 hour. This is in the ballpark now and with poly should match up nicely with old trim.
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Last edited by mdb007; 03-17-2016 at 09:34 PM. Reason: adding pics
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