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post #1 of 18 Old 06-11-2013, 02:56 AM Thread Starter
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Making windows

Hi folks I'm a noob here and I'm hoping you can help.

I'm making oak windows for my house. Frames and subframes are done, and look good. Now I need to make the opening bit.

I'm using joinery grade oak which I want to be as slim as possible to keep sight lines looking good. It needs to carry 16mm (5/8") double glazing. Am thinking the timber needs to be 40mm (1 3/4"). This will give 10mm bead either side and 2mm for glazing tape. Am thinking the timber should be 2" high - just because!

That's the design part. Thoughts welcome. On the making bit I am totally failing to get mortises tight and straight enough to hold shape without losing flatness and strength of the panel. I have a chisel morticer but I don't think I'm doing it right. Any videos / tips on making great mortice and tenon joints?

Thanks.
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post #2 of 18 Old 06-11-2013, 05:25 AM
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Could you post a sketch of your intended glazing, and the joint you want to make?









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post #3 of 18 Old 06-11-2013, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garyrxl View Post
Hi folks I'm a noob here and I'm hoping you can help.

I'm making oak windows for my house. Frames and subframes are done, and look good. Now I need to make the opening bit.

I'm using joinery grade oak which I want to be as slim as possible to keep sight lines looking good. It needs to carry 16mm (5/8") double glazing. Am thinking the timber needs to be 40mm (1 3/4"). This will give 10mm bead either side and 2mm for glazing tape. Am thinking the timber should be 2" high - just because!

That's the design part. Thoughts welcome. On the making bit I am totally failing to get mortises tight and straight enough to hold shape without losing flatness and strength of the panel. I have a chisel morticer but I don't think I'm doing it right. Any videos / tips on making great mortice and tenon joints?

Thanks.
You might want to consider using white oak for the windows. Red oak is bad to turn black when it gets wet. It would take maticulous maintenance to maintain red oak windows.

The divider bars on the window could be as little as 13mm. I'm not including the sticking or lip for the glass. The illustration I have shows the most common design for glazed windows used in the United States. It has coping and sticking just like a cabinet door. These sets are available on router bits. It would be the easiest way to mill them. The divider bars are just glued and pinned with brads. Some factories mortise and tenon the top and bottom rails. I worked at a small company and we just doweled the top and bottom rails.

I'm not visulizing what you have planned with the mortise and tenon either and could use a sketch also.
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post #4 of 18 Old 06-11-2013, 04:01 PM Thread Starter
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Hi folks thanks for the comments.

So here in uk we are rigorously controlled by the "council" who specify what you are allowed. This is worse for us as we are in what's called a "conservation area" in the Cotswolds. It's beautiful but can be a pain.

Our oak is specified as being untreated and left to silver naturally. So we are using white oak and just leaving it to age down. The subframes have been in for a year and have mostly silvered now and look nice. I'll try work out how to attach photos!

Also specified is there are no glaze bars. It's just a single large pane of glass. So all I'm trying to do is make a simple frame with 4 bits of wood which I think is 2" x 3/4" with a rebate and a chamfer. Sorry for rubbish drawing but I'm only on iPhone at moment and this is the only draw app I have.

I can make the profile easily but the openers are 4 foot high by 2 ft wide so corners need to be strong! It's that corner jointing I'm struggling to do accurately and straight. I'm pretty handy with wood - I've attached a photo of the library I panelled including making all the mouldings, mitring it all together. It's just mortise and tenon I struggle with.

I also attached a pic of the kitchen I designed and built from sheet MDF and 4x1 tulipwood.
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post #5 of 18 Old 06-11-2013, 05:34 PM
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how about a photo?

Windows and door usually use cope and stick/ stile and rail joinery:
http://americanwoodworker.com/blogs/...l-joinery.aspx
http://www.rockler.com/how-to/router...panel-joinery/

You are wanting to use mortise and tenon...right?

Here's a discussion on mitering, another option.
http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_bas...r_Joinery.html

I used a splined miter on these cabinet doors:


Which do you think is best for your application?
http://www.aconcordcarpenter.com/201...inet-door.html

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)

Last edited by woodnthings; 06-11-2013 at 05:54 PM.
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post #6 of 18 Old 06-12-2013, 03:39 AM Thread Starter
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Woodnthings


Thanks for the response. That is incredibly useful - ill definitely get a coped and stick set for finishing my kitchen doors. Been doing them butt and biscuit so far but I'm not happy with it. So that's fantastic! Thank you.

For the window I can see that c & s would give the strength but I'm struggling to visualise how it will work away from the actual joints as I don't want the beading along the length of the rail and stile. The frame needs to be plain square stock with a rabbet taken out. The glaze panel just pushes into the rabbet and is secured in place with a bead.

The mitre joint is beyond me to make neat and good as yours. I'm daunted by that!

I've got a set of tongue and groove bits but I can't see how to apply this (or c&s) to just where the rail meets the stile and not along the rails n stiles. Hence I'm resorting to mortise and tenon - albeit very reluctantly. I could maybe try to cut it flat after joining to remove moulding but that's going to be tricky in an assembled frame.

I know it's a 101 problem but I just need to join 4 sticks together at right angles to make a strong straight square edged rectangle. :-( spurred on by the info you provided on c&s ill have a play with t&g sets and see if it can make it work for me.

I still need to learn how to make a mortise joint tho!
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post #7 of 18 Old 06-12-2013, 05:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garyrxl View Post

For the window I can see that c & s would give the strength but I'm struggling to visualise how it will work away from the actual joints as I don't want the beading along the length of the rail and stile. The frame needs to be plain square stock with a rabbet taken out. The glaze panel just pushes into the rabbet and is secured in place with a bead.
This may solve your problem. You don't need a C&S set, or T&G bits. You can do it two different ways. Both ways only require a corner joint. Take your four pieces and you can make a simple miter joint, half lap, or a M&T for the corner. Lay out the four pieces and cut the ends accordingly for the corner joint. Leave loose...don't assemble...yet.

You can do the rabbet (the step for the glass) before you join the corners by marking out on the backside where the rails meet the stiles, the line for the rabbet. Then, you could rout the step and stop it at the pencil line, and square off the corners with a chisel. You can rout with a handheld and a straight faced bit, or use a rabbeting bit with a bearing. Doing it this way you can see what you're doing. If you do it on a router table, you will have to place some stops for where the bit will stop.

Once the rabbet is done, assemble the four pieces, and the frame is ready for finishing and glass.

The other way would be to assemble the four pieces using any method for making the joints...miter, half lap, M&T, etc. Once together, just run a rabbeting bit with a bearing around the backside to make the rabbet (the step). Draw a pencil line to square out the corners, and chisel them square.

To set the glass, you could use a small quarter round moulding as a nail on stop. Or, you could use panel retainers. If you figure the depth of the rabbet, and add the thickness of the glass, you can rabbet the step, and when the glass gets laid in, it flushes out to the backside. Then you can use a half round or flat moulding (nail on) to hold the glass. Part of it would be on the glass, part of it would be on the frame. This trims out the backside nicely.






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post #8 of 18 Old 06-12-2013, 07:49 AM Thread Starter
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Cabinet man,

Thanks - that makes sense. For retaining the glass ill be using glazing tape both sides and then a pin on moulding externally. Do you think 40mm (1 3/4") width stock will be enough. For this?

But my real problem is making those corner joints a) look great and b) be strong enough. The finish is unfinished so I can hide nothing. But also the opener is 4 ft by 2ft so has to be strong.

Half lap I'm not happy with the look of, and for the life of me even with a chisel mortiser I can't get tight, flat joints. Don't know whether my pencil is too think, whether I shouldn't be using a pencil at all but it just won't sit tight, flat and straight. The c n s may be a workaround but its not a proper solution. I think it needs to be rail and stile with mortise and tenon corner joints. So I need to learn how to make great corner m n t!
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post #9 of 18 Old 06-12-2013, 08:09 AM
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you haven't mentioned the style of window. how do the windows operate (open)? for window longevity, joint strength is key. a solid joint is a must. plain miters won't do it for that size frame, you will need a spline or additional reinforcement. the glazing weight is substantial.

the wood bead you are securing the glazing in with, you may consider doing that on the interior. i think it will be difficult to expect a weathertight seal with wood to wood without glue, caulk, glazing compound, etc.

Last edited by TimPa; 06-12-2013 at 08:12 AM.
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post #10 of 18 Old 06-12-2013, 08:37 AM
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describe your method for M &T

How are you making the mortise and is it a "through" hole to the opposite side? Or is it a stopped hole that doesn't show from the other side.




I have the best success if I reference the same side of the work for every operation to the worktable whether it's the router or fence or table saw. This keeps one surface constant and will result in a flat and perfectly even joint.

Your mortise must be centered on the workpiece as well as the tenon OR the offset must be the same, that's the reason for using only one reference surface...make an "X" on the pieces to avoid confusion.

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
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post #11 of 18 Old 06-12-2013, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garyrxl View Post

Half lap I'm not happy with the look of, and for the life of me even with a chisel mortiser I can't get tight, flat joints. Don't know whether my pencil is too think, whether I shouldn't be using a pencil at all but it just won't sit tight, flat and straight. The c n s may be a workaround but its not a proper solution. I think it needs to be rail and stile with mortise and tenon corner joints. So I need to learn how to make great corner m n t!
Do you have a tablesaw, router, and some bench chisels? You did say you have a chisel mortiser. Is that a dedicated hollow chisel mortiser?







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post #12 of 18 Old 06-12-2013, 09:15 AM Thread Starter
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Woodnthings

Thanks. I've been doing the taking measures off one side only off a fence for making the hole (not stopped but fully through) but your point has I triggered in my own mind what I think I'm doing wrong.

I put the mortises on the fence but when it comes to the tenon I'm less methodical. Because I don't have huge lot of kit. So I lay on the the cut mortise and take tenon marks off that and then run it through the bandsaw to the lines. But I'm getting a pencil line or more of difference which is what is casing the looseness and offsets.

I have got a bandsaw, planer and a table saw. So I think I need to set up the kit properly. Set the mortiser fence, then set the bandsaw to corresponding one side of the tenon, and the table saw to the other of the tenon. If I get it set right it should work. I've been trying to reset the bandsaw and cut to lines. And I'm not accurate enough to do that.

Does this approach make sense?
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post #13 of 18 Old 06-12-2013, 09:20 AM Thread Starter
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Cabinet man,


Yes to all! It's a pillar hollow chisel mortiser. It struggles a bit with the oak but it gets through. Half inch thickness only.

I did recall that my oak stock is already prepared and planed but actually I'm getting half a mm or more variation. So I need to be more diligent about planing my stock to size before starting.

I think it's starting to make sense to me now.
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post #14 of 18 Old 06-12-2013, 09:21 AM Thread Starter
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Do you think a wedge is necessary even in oak?
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post #15 of 18 Old 06-12-2013, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garyrxl View Post
Woodnthings

Thanks. I've been doing the taking measures off one side only off a fence for making the hole (not stopped but fully through) but your point has I triggered in my own mind what I think I'm doing wrong.

I put the mortises on the fence but when it comes to the tenon I'm less methodical. Because I don't have huge lot of kit. So I lay on the the cut mortise and take tenon marks off that and then run it through the bandsaw to the lines. But I'm getting a pencil line or more of difference which is what is casing the looseness and offsets.

I have got a bandsaw, planer and a table saw. So I think I need to set up the kit properly. Set the mortiser fence, then set the bandsaw to corresponding one side of the tenon, and the table saw to the other of the tenon. If I get it set right it should work. I've been trying to reset the bandsaw and cut to lines. And I'm not accurate enough to do that.

Does this approach make sense?
I make tenons on the bandsaw also.
You can use 2 stops, one for the shoulders, another for the length.
I set the fence to remove equal material from both of the faces. It requires a few test pieces and trial and error to get a tenon that will insert into the mortise just right....no slop or wiggle.
Your material MUST be the exactly the same thickness....
I use a 6 tooth blade 1/2" wide and sharp. A dull blade will wander.
I make all the tenons a touch long and sand them flush after assembly.

How stock is your finished stock?

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
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post #16 of 18 Old 06-12-2013, 09:42 AM Thread Starter
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I hadn't thought the bandsaw blade may wander. I've just checked the throat on it and its about 9"! But I can adjust it down to just wider than the stock. Never have! No wonder I'm getting variation!

The stock is pretty good but it's cut and planed to size to order not off a commercial standard. So there's a little variation there as well.
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post #17 of 18 Old 06-12-2013, 09:44 AM Thread Starter
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I think now I'm starting to get a feel for what in doubt wrong ill aim for stopped tenons. It will look better for application I using it. I'll be able to put 1 1/4" tenons in even though stopped so I think that'll be adequate.
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post #18 of 18 Old 06-12-2013, 09:49 AM
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Cabinet man,
I did recall that my oak stock is already prepared and planed but actually I'm getting half a mm or more variation. So I need to be more diligent about planing my stock to size before starting.

I think it's starting to make sense to me now.

If you are buying S4S hardwood at a box store, they will vary. In that case check to see which way they are out. If you reference the location of the joint to relate to the same face or edge, the location of the mortise will align. Then you may have to do some sanding (or hand planing) on the other side after assembly, to take down the slight difference.

You could do the tenons on just the tablesaw, if you aren't getting the accuracy from the bandsaw. Making a jig to hold the pieces isn't all that hard to do.






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