Woodworking Talk banner

Imperial vs Metric

12K views 103 replies 38 participants last post by  fareastern 
#1 ·
Is imperial **** or is imperial ****?

Keen to hear from any Americans using metric cause it’s better?

Just a curious Australian wondering.

Not sure how calculating an inch divided by 4 makes sense when you can just say 6.35mm.

Thoughts.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#2 ·
Inch, unit of British Imperial and United States Customary measure equal to 1/36 of a yard. The unit derives from the Old English ince, or ynce, which in turn came from the Latin unit uncia, which was “one-twelfth” of a Roman foot, or pes.

[emoji2357]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#9 ·
I'm a convert!

For most of the woodwork I do, 1/16th of an inch is not an accurate enough interval. 1/32" is too fine and hard to see on a rule. 1/25.4th of an inch (1mm :) seems juuuuust right. I use millimeters in my drawings and in building. Although I know the decimal equivalents of imperial fractions and can do most fractional divisions in my head, it's sooooo much easier in metric.

The only problems I have are that materials are not purchased in metric measurements. The lumber yard doesn't sell 50x100's they sell 2x4's, so one must convert back and forth. Even in Canada where metric is in prevalent use, plywood is still sold in 4'X8' sheets (I don't know how they figure that out! :)
And for some reason, imagining the relative size of metric measurements hasn't gotten stuck in my head. I can readily picture how big 8 inches is, but I don't automatically equate something's size into metric units. I know that 13mm=1/2" and 19mm=3/4" but it's not convenient to have to convert back and forth. Also, tools here other than wrenches aren't readily available in metric measurements. Rulers and especially tape measures are hard to find graduated in mm. Same for drills, router bits and the like. Metric nuts and bolts are available, but selection is limited and it's tends to be more costly than imperial hardware which can be bought in bulk.
 
#12 ·
They have been talking metric in the cabinet shops for many years. Never happened. The furniture company I worked for last used metric, but only on the machines from overseas.still they converted metric to standard for the final products...They all had charts..
 
#15 ·
Haha! There's a lot I CAN do but it's too expensive so I haven't done those things. So I can't say, 'Been there, done that!'

'Been there, haven't done that, but I could' just doesn't have the same ring to it. :grin:

David
 
#16 ·
The UK moved to metric in, I believe, 1971 in preparation for joining the EU.
I remember it took some time to get used to pricing items in metric.
However, my children benefited from the easier maths when a pound became 100 pence rather than 240.
Measurements took longer and I still thought of imperial until the 2000s.
I now make a conscious effort to measure in metric.
The US had decimalised money from the start of the dollar.
Regarding aerospace, there was the failed mission to Mars due to confusion and also the plane that ran out of fuel over the Atlantic. Gallons of petrol only became litres a few years ago when the price rose in response to various factors.
Still think of MPG rate than miles/litre.
johnep
 
#20 ·
"miles/litre" makes me laugh. Oops, I didn't notice your comment about decimalized currency when I posted my comment above.

Canada was fairly new to the metric standard when I lived there. The grocery stores sold produce where some items priced per 100 grams, others priced per pound. The mailed advertisements from the stores were also mixed. I never figured out how they decided which units to use; it seemed random to me. Pricier items seemed more likely to be sold per 100 grams, but not always.

I find myself having to do mixed measurements with woodworking from time to time. I write procedures like, "Drill a 5 mm hole exactly 1/2 inch above the mark." Stuff like that.
 
#17 ·
I was born in Brazil (100% metric) and moved to Australia in 2002.
Imperial still rules here for the following:

Height of a human : Im 182cm (People look at you funny)

Weight of a baby ( that’s changing though...)

Not all change is good but imperial is **** [emoji23]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#19 · (Edited)
Serious post:

I use and feel equally comfortable with both measurement systems or rarely, a mix of both when necessary. In the past, I used the term "Imperial." This Wikipedia article says, 'The United States Code refers to these units as "traditional systems of weights and measures". Other common ways of referring to the system in the U.S. are: "customary", "standard", or, erroneously: "English", or "imperial" ...'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_customary_units

-> I stand corrected. Going forward, I will call the US measurement system "standard."

My Freud dado blade set came with a chart which listed the blade configurations for various standard unit widths. I needed a 3/8 inch dado and followed the chart - two blades and one chipper. What I got was not 3/8 inch. The set came with shims, but Freud did not want to show that they were necessary for accurate standard unit cuts. I am still angry with Freud over that. I would have preferred an accurate chart, shims and all. See:
https://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f2/box-joint-jig-freud-dado-stack-1-64-inch-220127/

There was a thread here where someone wrote about the different woodworking traditions in Japan, and how they contrast with those here in the US. They asked for suggestions of which woodworking traditions we could borrow from other cultures around the world to improve our own woodworking. My response was simple, "Switch to metric."

I would be pleased if the US could pick a day, switch to metric, and be done with it. It would give us a tremendous boost to our economy. What I see is slow but steady progress towards that goal, driven by our entities (businesses, military, etc.) that must interact with the rest of the world. I doubt that a complete conversion will happen in my time.

Less serious:

As @difalkner noted, our country is the only one to get people to the moon. That said, we also burned up a probe in the Martian atmosphere because two software modules performed computations in standard and metric unit systems respectively, and failed to convert between them:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Climate_Orbiter

Related:

I bet @johnedp34 remembers the day when the UK moved to a decimal currency. Does anybody remember the day when Sweden switched from left side driving to right side driving?
 
#21 ·
With the exception of home building and related industries most US industry is now primarily metric. Retail is quite a mix. For example, beer is sold by the ounce while wine and spirits come in fractional(!) liter quantities (3/8, 3/4 1-3/4). You find yogurt both ways, ounces or kilograms depending on brand. Same with soft drinks and bottled water, ounces and liters, both within the same brand. It's amazing how people will gladly suck down a supersize 1 liter soft drink but I'm sure would freak out at gasoline sold by the liter.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Zeus_cat
#22 ·
It's been my experience that most people who engage in this type of discussion don't really understand the topic in the first place. The vast majority of people think they are arguing "units of measure", when in fact they are just arguing "numbers".

"Fractions vs. Decimals" is completely unrelated to the discussion of "Imperial vs. Metric".

Once this distinction is understood, the average resident of this planet has very little concern over which unit of measure is preferred. That's because the average resident of this planet has very little need to convert units of similar measure. The most common cases where mixed units of measure are frequently employed is "Feet & Inches", or volume measurements in cooking recipes (tablespoon, cup, pint, etc). But this is actually a moot point, because mixed units of measure should be avoided, regardless which measurement system is employed.

As for fraction versus decimal, that is simply a choice that some people make to better assist themselves with a visual representation of the whole unit. All primary units get divided into smaller pieces. The only difference is the personal choice whether someone uses a base-10 division versus some other base-# division.
 
#23 ·
Cesar,
It is like this.

When it comes to spirits, the government and the industry pulled a fast one.

A fifth (US Gallon) is about 7.08 ML larger than a 750ML bottle. The significance is that for every 141.24 Liters of spirits the government gets an extra 1 Liter tax and the industry gets an extra liter of spirits to sell. It is all in the money. Most Americans don't have a clue as to how much 7.08 ML really is. (Almost ¼ US fluid ounce. By the time we got to the bottom of a fifth, ¼ ounce doesn't make any difference.)

As for petrol consumption, the number of Liters consumed per 100 Kilometers makes no sense to most Americans especially when the lower the number the better. We just don't think that way.

When the US tried to convert to the Metric system, the world was a different place. At that time most of the Shelias were full time, stay at home mothers. With one simple sentence and regardless of government intervention they made it so that the Metric system would never find wide spread use in the US.

I spent an hour or two trying to explain the metric system to SWMBO. I even showed her how she was already using the metric system without realizing it. She just looked at me and said, "I will not cook in metric." That was it. She and 80 or 100 million liker her said the same thing. Wives of the legislators in our governments revolted with the same sentence nationwide.

So in the US, given the choices back in the 1970s, 'Do we take the high road and starve or do we do nothing and get fat?' Well obviously we chose the latter. Remember that back then girls were taught "The way to a man's heart is through his stomach."

Today, however, with the work force being a majority of women, it may be possible to convert the US to metric. But I wouldn't hold my breath.

Unfortunately I don't think that the rest of the planet is quite ready for the US to convert. Some years ago I was reading the installation manual on-line for a woodworking machine. The machine was an European manufactured machine. It was this manual that caused me to believe that the US will never convert, but you be the judge of that. Part of the instructions said, ".... using a one meter 2 x 4...." At that point I realized that there is very little hope that the US will convert to the Metric system in my lifetime.
 
#25 ·
I get a chuckle that metric pipe threads adopted the British Standard Pipe standards and metric pipe is the same set of wacky diameters as US pipe.

I was in engineering and the first time I did a foundation concrete takeoff in meters, instead of feet and inches, I was almost done before I started!:surprise2: Another fun fact, a cubic meter of water weighs a metric ton.
 
#26 ·
I was lucky enough to be just starting school when Canada switched to metric so I'm bilingual and I'm glad of that. Eventually the USA will be totally metric simply because it imports so much from metric countries. I'll bet every appliance in your house is metric, all electronics are metric even the domestic US automotive industry has gone metric, my 2005 Envoy made in Oklahoma is 100% metric and my buddy tells me Boeing is 100% metric.

The human mind is so powerful that being able to look at a piece of wood and recognize that it's BOTH 1 foot long and 30.5cm long at the same time should be the easiest thing in the world. No one should have trouble with that unless they've decided they can't.

If a person uses Imperial units what do I care, I think of them as someone who speaks another language that I happen to also understand, I'm just glad no one is still using cubits! In the end we're still all woodworkers looking forward to a Saturday in the shop covered in sawdust.
 
#27 · (Edited)
...I'm just glad no one is still using cubits!
Well... not everyone has given up on cubits. Several years ago when I was gearing up for building acoustic guitars and needed radius dishes I thought it would be fun to mark the radius in cubits.

Here are the two dishes and if you'll look in the top left corner you'll see the specific radius for that dish (15' and 28' for those that don't speak 'cubit') :ROFLMAO:

Wood woodworking


Art


David
 
#32 ·
Curiously, angular measurements have never gone metric, even in the metric system. A circle has been 360 degrees since time immemorial and remains that in both systems. Conveniently, a circle can be divided in 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, 1/5, 1/6, 1/9, 1/10, and 1/12 and the arc remains an integral degree measurement. Anyone out there think a 100 degree circle makes sense?

Imperial surveying was originally built on base 2. A mile was 320 rods. See how many times a square mile can be quartered with the sides of the plots remaining an integral number of rods. A quarter section farm is 160 rods square. A 40 acre field is 80 rods square. A 10 acre plot is 40 rods square.

Prior to the development of standardized measurement, it would not have occurred to surveyors, carpenters, and tailors that they needed the same units to measure length. They built measurement systems suitedto their crafts rather than having to adapt their crafts to arbitrary measurements.
 
#33 ·
if you want to go down a similar rabbit hole, try getting into active yeast, dry yeast, instant yeast, cake yeast, Ozs , teaspoons etc.
 
#34 ·
One of my first jobs was on a survey crew, over 55 years ago. Feet and tenths had be scratching my head. I asked my party chief why tenths and why not feet and inches? His answer has stayed with me all these years. I'll sanitize it here for a family forum. "The only people that use feet and inches are carpenters and ladies of the evening." :vs_laugh:
 
#35 ·
Use the system that you are most comfortable with, furniture made from dimension lumber looks really amateurish, so cut those 2X4's to whatever dimension you wish, inches, millimetres, cubits, pick a size that looks good and go for it. Nobody will have any idea what ruler you used, they will only know if they like it or not.
 
#36 ·
Curiously, angular measurements have never gone metric, even in the metric system. A circle has been 360 degrees since time immemorial and remains that in both systems.

Well, yes and no. In a lot of engineering a circle is divided into radians. there are pi (3.14159) radians in 180 degrees. It's a ratio whereby you take the radius of the circle and lay it around the arc, both being the same length. You get 6.28 radians per circle. It makes a lot of math involving sine waves a lot simpler.
 
#38 ·
Serious post:

I would like to thank @Rick Christopherson for his excellent points, which I had not fully considered. The issues are not only about common units of measurement. (For "standard" woodworking, I use inches, not feet and inches.) Rick also pointed out that when we do woodworking in standard units, we tend to use fractional notation, but when we work in metric, we use decimal notation. I am comfortable with either notation style and the math that goes with them, but I can see how switching between them could be more challenging for others.

Since I got back into woodworking a few years ago, I tell my spouse how surprised I am at how much math I have needed - geometry, geometric construction, and trigonometry in particular. I store a calculator with trig functions and a small drafting set in the garage, and use them. A compass, dividers, and straightedge can do a lot. I like the old vintage US and German drafting tools, and bought a small vintage drafting set on eBay for around $10 to keep in the garage. I suspect that most woodworkers don't bother with math and drafting tools. A practiced eye and a lifetime of experience is faster and better.

I would also like to thank @NoThankyou for giving a plausible reason for why we didn't make the expected switch to the metric system in the late 1960s and early 1970s. It makes sense to me. I like to cook, and I bake the bread for the family, so I get it. I still use teaspoons, tablespoons, and cups in fractional notation. I would be happy to switch to metric, but all of my recipes (and those I find online) are not. For the last two decades, many volume measurements are done by weight, using a digital kitchen scale. It faster and far more consistent.

For those who grew up with metric cooking, 3 teaspoons = 1 tablespoon, but 2 tablespoons = 1/8 cup. Ouch.

In response to @JayArr's post, I have never heard of anyone using radians or grads for angle measurements in woodworking. Most woodworkers have never heard of either scale. I have seen posts here mentioning "dms" notation, but my work has never needed precision finer than 0.5 degrees. The need for 0.5 degree precision happened only once so far, but the 0.5 degrees made a noticeable difference for that project.

I still wish we could bite the bullet, pick a day, and switch to common international standards here in the US. It will be a painful and expensive investment, but the obvious payback should appear in less than a decade, two at most.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top