How far out is too far (on the diagonals)? - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
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post #1 of 19 Old 06-29-2017, 09:14 PM Thread Starter
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How far out is too far (on the diagonals)?

12 X 20 shed going up, took a lot of care to keep everything level, plumb and square. 3 sides covered, 4th open yet, ready to install rafters. Diagonals are off by just under 2". Worth pulling straight, or will it not be a problem installing steel roofing. Seriously thinking of trying to pull it into square and adding a few braces, if only so I can say it's square. I doubt anyone would know, but I would if I didn't fix it.
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post #2 of 19 Old 06-29-2017, 09:45 PM
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I wouldn't change it if it were mine. I often have that happen working by myself with nobody to help me measure. Your overhang will vary from one end to another. That is really all it will hurt. You might alter your design and let the overhang be a couple inches bigger to insure it doesn't get too small at the other end. You could also let each sheet of metal extend past the previous a 1/2" or so.
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post #3 of 19 Old 06-29-2017, 10:28 PM
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It may not move?

With the sheathing on, I don't know IF you can move it that much?
You say it's plumb and square, but it's really a parallelogram OR maybe a trapezoid? Determine which side is not square OR maybe which side is longer? Got a good tape measure and a safe ladder?
Hook it at the top and be on the ground to sight your measurements.

That would cause it to not be equal on the diagonals. You probably have a "perfectionist" gene in your ancestry, like I do and want to fix it, and I don't blame you. If you try and succeed, great. If not, Oh Well.

You can do a lot with a nail and a plumb bob. Leave an inch of bare nail on the top plate and see if there is an inch of space at the bottom. Then you'll need a come along and some chain to pull the long side in. ....just some basic woodworking equipment.
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The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
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post #4 of 19 Old 06-29-2017, 10:48 PM
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2"??

Measure Twice Cut Once -- It's a lot easier to cut more off then it is to cut MORON.
Finishing is 3 parts chemistry and 1 part VooDoo http://lrgwood.com
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post #5 of 19 Old 06-29-2017, 11:05 PM
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I hung drywall in a shed in Texas for a friend and along the way I realized there was nothing square about the place. One sheet of 4x8 would almost always need 3" cut from one side of the 4' edge and maybe a 1/4" on the other side and so it went all the way around. I remember watching the guys working on it and I'm not convinced they knew what a square was at all. The ridge pole wasn't one straight piece, but rather 8 or 9 individual short pieces with a nifty 4" dip in the roof..
I got it together and taped up then lived in it for around 7 years with no problems, but it twere no fun getting it there..
Truth be told I'm glad I no longer live there, but it got me through some lean days of my life..

I figured it's time to change my signature so hold your breath. This is it.
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post #6 of 19 Old 06-29-2017, 11:14 PM
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In perspective:
20 feet = 240 inches
12 feet = 144 inches

2 inches is 1.4% error on the short side.

2 inches is .8% error on the long side.

WELL within an acceptable margin.
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post #7 of 19 Old 06-29-2017, 11:38 PM
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1/4" is acceptable.

Measure Twice Cut Once -- It's a lot easier to cut more off then it is to cut MORON.
Finishing is 3 parts chemistry and 1 part VooDoo http://lrgwood.com
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post #8 of 19 Old 06-30-2017, 05:11 AM
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Pulling the top of the walls into square would take almost no effort. You are pulling against the corners, not all the nails in the sheathing. Since the top plate is higher on the unsheathed wall, you have to sheath the corners and over the headers of the wall first or you will just bend the 2x4's.

Put a come-a-long on the long diagonal and give it just a little pressure. You only need to pull the long side in 1". The short side will go out one inch when you do.
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post #9 of 19 Old 06-30-2017, 07:57 AM
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2" is a lot. You should be able to get that simple, little thing just about perfect. However, you should have had it braced before you put the plywood on.

I do not prize the word "cheap." It is not a badge of honor...it is a symbol of despair. Cheap prices make for cheap goods; cheap goods make for cheap men; and cheap men make for a cheap country. ~ William McKinley
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post #10 of 19 Old 06-30-2017, 08:09 AM
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Unless you plan on a very small overhang, it probably will not be noticeable.

George
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post #11 of 19 Old 06-30-2017, 09:10 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo G View Post
1/4" is acceptable.
1/4" on the diagonal? I'd settle for 1/2"

Quote:
Originally Posted by J.C. View Post
2" is a lot. You should be able to get that simple, little thing just about perfect. However, you should have had it braced before you put the plywood on.
You mean like in the picture? All the 2Xs in the framing were used lumber except for the studs. The plywood sheathing was also used, but came out right on the money on the four corners, so those dimensions were pretty close.

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Unless you plan on a very small overhang, it probably will not be noticeable.

George
Overhang will be about 10" each side. If I can't get the diagonals closer, I guess I could trim the ends of the sheet steel if it runs out. Only 14 sheets, could do. You know, paint and putty cover up a multitude of sins.
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post #12 of 19 Old 06-30-2017, 12:46 PM
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I'm with FreedHardWoods. You really only need to get an inch. I'd try cranking it with a come along and see if it squares up. You may need to go a tad over an inch since it will probably spring back some, but I'd try that, brace it and keep on keepin' on.


I'm assuming, we're talking about the diagonals at the top of the walls, not at the foundation, right?
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post #13 of 19 Old 06-30-2017, 01:12 PM
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as mentioned, depends on what surface you are referring to being out of square. I assumed you meant the wall, say a view of the back wall, or side wall. if it is the top plate, birds eye view, than you can pull that square. unsquare walls (causing unplumb walls) will cause some problems when you fit doors and/or windows. and anything else related to wall usage.


unfortunately, I am ocd so it 1/4" or less for me. took me 18 years to build my house for that reason.... if I was there I would help you tear off the sheathing to start over.
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post #14 of 19 Old 06-30-2017, 01:28 PM
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Tall, unsheathed wall...right?

If the diagonals are not equal, then either of two things is wonky.

1. The side walls are not plumb presently, and when you pull the top plate inwards they will either be more out of plumb or more in.

2. The ends of the front, unsheathed wall are not of equal height. If they were built on the floor with equal length studs, that's not likely. If the studs were nailed in place then more likely.... ?

Check both side walls right at the front corner for plumb and see what they read. This ain't rocket surgery, so you can make it better without too much trouble. :smile3:

If you don't have a come along, drive a substantial stake into the ground about 8 ft away and brace a 2 x 4 against the wall at the top to push it plumb. Once it's good, toe nail it in place until you can properly brace it. Proper diagonal bracing is "let in" to each stud as it passes over them making the brace flush for the sheathing.
Sheathing alone will brace it, but it aughta be plumb first, then nailed. The 4 X 8 sheathing can be used as large square, better than a 24" framing square in the corners.

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
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post #15 of 19 Old 06-30-2017, 05:47 PM
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I assumed you meant the diagonals of the top plates since you didn't mention any specific wall. That is normal to have to pull those square after standing the walls up.

If you meant individual walls are out of square, they aren't moving til you get the sheathing off.
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post #16 of 19 Old 06-30-2017, 07:18 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woodnthings View Post
If the diagonals are not equal, then either of two things is wonky.

1. The side walls are not plumb presently, and when you pull the top plate inwards they will either be more out of plumb or more in.

2. The ends of the front, unsheathed wall are not of equal height. If they were built on the floor with equal length studs, that's not likely. If the studs were nailed in place then more likely.... ?

Check both side walls right at the front corner for plumb and see what they read. This ain't rocket surgery, so you can make it better without too much trouble. :smile3:

If you don't have a come along, drive a substantial stake into the ground about 8 ft away and brace a 2 x 4 against the wall at the top to push it plumb. Once it's good, toe nail it in place until you can properly brace it. Proper diagonal bracing is "let in" to each stud as it passes over them making the brace flush for the sheathing.
Sheathing alone will brace it, but it aughta be plumb first, then nailed. The 4 X 8 sheathing can be used as large square, better than a 24" framing square in the corners.
All walls were built on the floor with equal length studs. Wall corners are pretty much plumb all four corners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by freedhardwoods View Post
I assumed you meant the diagonals of the top plates since you didn't mention any specific wall. That is normal to have to pull those square after standing the walls up.

If you meant individual walls are out of square, they aren't moving til you get the sheathing off.
Yes, it's the diagonals on the top plate.

Update - decided I would take a shot at fixing the discrepancy - took a pair of tie down straps corner to corner on the long wall and pulled it in a tad over an inch. Going to leave the straps in place until rafters set and a couple diagonals nailed to the underside of them.
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post #17 of 19 Old 07-01-2017, 12:00 PM
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Did you check the diagonals on the floor framing before putting up the walls? If the floor framing was also out 2", you'd probably be better off keeping the top of the walls out 2" as well. You'll knock the walls out of plumb if the base isn't square and I think I'd rather have plumb walls than a half square building.

I do not prize the word "cheap." It is not a badge of honor...it is a symbol of despair. Cheap prices make for cheap goods; cheap goods make for cheap men; and cheap men make for a cheap country. ~ William McKinley

Last edited by J.C.; 07-01-2017 at 12:07 PM.
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post #18 of 19 Old 07-01-2017, 01:44 PM Thread Starter
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Floor was checked several times - when blocks were placed, when joists were laid, and when plywood was installed. Diagonals were within 1/4" when walls started. Not my first rodeo on construction.

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post #19 of 19 Old 08-06-2017, 09:37 PM Thread Starter
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Been neglecting the pics and posting, update. Outside pic shows some of the trim being installed; as of today all trim is on and tomorrow starts the paint job. last two are quick shots of the inside while I'm working out parking arrangements. Electric is in, one 120 @20 amps for outlet, one @ 15 for lights. (240 feed from garage). Next comes installing lots of shelving.
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