How to cut a straight clean groove? Uber beginner - Page 2 - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
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post #21 of 50 Old 07-25-2020, 10:51 AM
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Well..for the absolute beginners I'd avoid power tools with the high potential for cutting fingers off at all cost. Nothing you'll ever build or want to build is worth the loss of a finger or worse. That brings us to hand tools like a plow plane for example and even then there's a steep learning curve, but the potential for loss of body parts goes way way down.
I just purchased this handy, dandy little toy for a mere hundred and something bucks.
(We'll just pretend I wasn't paying enough attention to the fact that it was shipped from the UK and the shipping costs were almost the same as the tool itself!......duh.)
Now, does the person in question happen to have a Record # 405 sitting around just waiting for use? Probably not, but it's not impossible to obtain another version, Stanley, etc., for less than I paid. A plow plane and a vise would certainly make the cuts, is repeatable and far less dangerous than a router, table saw or even a forstner bit spinning at high speed..
There are also far less expensive versions with wedge tool holders. As long as sharpening isn't an issue they still work well too...after the steep learning curve..
The cheapo Chinese version will work, but needs sharpening and a lot of scraping and sanding of the finish whatever it is..
Believe it or not it only took about 30 seconds to cut the 1/4" grove with the cheapo Chinese version.
How trusting of fingers are you with power tools with beginners? This doesn't even begin to mention the numerous wooden plow planes available on eBay and a few other places.

I figured it's time to change my signature so hold your breath. This is it.
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Last edited by allpurpose; 07-25-2020 at 11:26 AM.
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post #22 of 50 Old 07-25-2020, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allpurpose View Post
Well..for the absolute beginners I'd avoid power tools with the high potential for cutting fingers off at all cost. Nothing you'll ever build or want to build is worth the loss of a finger or worse. That brings us to hand tools like a plow plane for example and even then there's a steep learning curve, but the potential for loss of body parts goes way way down.
I just purchased this handy, dandy little toy for a mere hundred and something bucks.
(We'll just pretend I wasn't paying enough attention to the fact that it was shipped from the UK and the shipping costs were almost the same as the tool itself!......duh.)
Now, does the person in question happen to have a Record # 405 sitting around just waiting for use? Probably not, but it's not impossible to obtain another version, Stanley, etc., for less than I paid. A plow plane and a vise would certainly make the cuts, is repeatable and far less dangerous than a router, table saw or even a forstner bit spinning at high speed..
There are also far less expensive versions with wedge tool holders. As long as sharpening isn't an issue they still work well too...after the steep learning curve..
The cheapo Chinese version will work, but needs sharpening and a lot of scraping and sanding of the finish whatever it is..
Believe it or not it only took about 30 seconds to cut the 1/4" grove with the cheapo Chinese version.
How trusting of fingers are you with power tools with beginners? This doesn't even begin to mention the numerous wooden plow planes available on eBay and a few other places.
Show us how to start and stop in the middle of the board as decried in the topic.
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post #23 of 50 Old 07-25-2020, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rvi17 View Post
Hi everyone,
What would be the best way to cut this in a clean way? Preferably, this should be easily repeatable (I am interested in making a lot of these)
Router table? Plunge router? (if so, which bit?)
Drill with forstner bits and chisel the rest?
Thanks!

sorry you've gotten so much advice on how to do everything but what you want. it's an interesting crowd.


...making a lot....
a router will be the fastest. for a one off, I put the router bit in a drill press and use a vice/x-y table. that avoids a bunch of set-up; but for qty's the set up time is worth it.


couple thoughts:
#1: 1/2" deep cut all in one pass - - - that's iffy. I'd be tempted to do two rough passes to a depth of 7/16 and a final third 'finishing' pass.
#2: using power tools on small pieces....that's an invite to trouble.

one of the worst accidents I ever saw....guy using a using a dado on a table saw, the short wood panel split in half and his hand went into the dado head. messy, very messy. sometimes people do dumb things, sometimes it is actually an "accident"



consider a four position blank - two wide, two "long" - interrupted cuts on a router table, with stops.
make the stops about 1 mm short on the initial roughing passes, then the 'final length' dimension on the finishing pass.
one could go three/four/etc wide, but using only two wide, if you account for the saw kerf when cutting the pcs apart, no fence position changes required....



not exactly uncomplicated - so holler if you need more detail.
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post #24 of 50 Old 07-25-2020, 01:40 PM
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Good advice above ^

If I were doing this, I'd use a plunge router and a "capture" jig to hold them. Here's how:

The jig would be a 3/4" piece of plywood roughly 12" wide by 20" long and it would have an opening/hole cut into the center the same size as your workpiece.... so it's captured and can't move. Now we need stop blocks for the long length of travel at each of the base of the router. If the router has rounded end ad flat sides this will make the jig easier to make. If not, totally round is OK too. Now we need a fence on either side of the router base centered on the workpiece so it will travel the length of the groove precisely and get stopped at both ends.

Pretty much just an opening the size of the workpiece surrounded by four strips to control the router's travel in two axis. You drop in your workpiece, plunge rout your groove, lift off the router and remove the finished piece. The entire operation would take less than a minute. And it's completely safe with no exposed cutters.
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The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)

Last edited by woodnthings; 07-25-2020 at 02:49 PM.
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post #25 of 50 Old 07-25-2020, 03:19 PM Thread Starter
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WOW! Thank you all so much for all the info and the comments (It is a bit overwhelming, but that's part of the game).
I'll explain a bit more -
I am a teacher in a high school with an equipped shop (SawStop table saw, drill press, band saw, small palm router, plunge router, router table, small planar, a ShopBot CNC router (temporarily out of order) and a laser cutter.
We teach a class that combines coding and electronics with fabrication - Woodworking, metalworking, 3D printing. We have a lot of equipment, but lack the skills (I have a degree in physics and the other teacher a degree in biology).
I've been working in this shop for about two years with the students, but have been doing very basic cuts, and that's why I still consider myself a beginner. The school has been closed for 4 months (COVID) and now for the summer, so I'm utilizing the shop to learn, and make some stuff.
I'm currently making a Mezzuzah, it is a wooden box with a groove in the back of it, to hold a rolled paper with scripture on it. the wooden box is going to be mounted onto a door frame, with the paper nestled in the groove, and the groove side will be hidden, attached to the door with double sided tape.
I'm interesting in maybe mass producing and selling them, so I would like the back to also look good. (The front has an inlay of maple, with the hebrew letters laser-cut into it).

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Smith_inFL View Post
will it be a flat bottom or round bottom groove ?
you will probably get a dozen good suggestions to choose from.
the best way is to make a prototype - then present it to the forum
for the most accurate feedback.
(hint: once you make the prototype, you will probably figure out a jig
that is within your skill sets and tools available).
and we always have the curiosity streak of what it will be used for.

.
For aesthetics, I would like a rounded groove (U shape cross section?) what bit can I use for this? as I understand, it is a drop cut, so it needs to a bit designed for those cuts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JIMMIEM View Post
My first choice would be a router table. The piece is a little narrow to route with a hand held router and jig. Router table with 3/4 inch bit would be very simple and repeatable. With the router table you would set the fence and take multiple passes raising the bit on each pass.
See above - what bit would you recomend?

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Originally Posted by woodnthings View Post
There are router bits that will make a round bottom groove:
https://ballewsaw.com/whiteside-mach...#prod_id=41174
Ignore the bearing, not needed for use on a router table.
Is this bit designed for drop cuts?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JIMMIEM View Post
Another option is with a plunge router, jig, and guide bushing. The guide bushing will follow the dimensions of the jig. There is a real quick and easy way to make a jig using a sliding compound miter saw. This is probably less dangerous than doing the process on the router table.
Will all the pieces needing the groove have the same dimensions?
Close to same dimensions, but not always. I use scraps that we have to make it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sunnybob View Post

If the shop is well equipped does it have a morticer?
No mortiser.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebelwork View Post
You need to lock the piece down and use a jig similiar to the picture with stops...there's more to it though...
It makes sense, the jig looks useful. I might try that as well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim107 View Post
I would flute a much bigger piece and then cut it down to size.
What do you mean by "Flute"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tool Agnostic View Post
You will need a spiral router bit or a plunge router bit. (Most ordinary straight bits cannot be plunged for stopped dados like the one you want.)
Can you recommend a bit?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomCT2 View Post
sorry you've gotten so much advice on how to do everything but what you want. it's an interesting crowd.


...making a lot....
a router will be the fastest. for a one off, I put the router bit in a drill press and use a vice/x-y table. that avoids a bunch of set-up; but for qty's the set up time is worth it.


couple thoughts:
#1: 1/2" deep cut all in one pass - - - that's iffy. I'd be tempted to do two rough passes to a depth of 7/16 and a final third 'finishing' pass.
#2: using power tools on small pieces....that's an invite to trouble.

one of the worst accidents I ever saw....guy using a using a dado on a table saw, the short wood panel split in half and his hand went into the dado head. messy, very messy. sometimes people do dumb things, sometimes it is actually an "accident"



consider a four position blank - two wide, two "long" - interrupted cuts on a router table, with stops.
make the stops about 1 mm short on the initial roughing passes, then the 'final length' dimension on the finishing pass.
one could go three/four/etc wide, but using only two wide, if you account for the saw kerf when cutting the pcs apart, no fence position changes required....



not exactly uncomplicated - so holler if you need more detail.
It sounds simple (maybe?) but I lack the skill to visualise your suggestion. I would love to hear more.

Last edited by rvi17; 07-25-2020 at 03:22 PM.
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post #26 of 50 Old 07-25-2020, 03:39 PM
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A few pictures might help..
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post #27 of 50 Old 07-25-2020, 03:47 PM
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If you cant find a bushing that will accept a 3/4 groove bit you will need to use this to set the depth...
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post #28 of 50 Old 07-25-2020, 03:47 PM
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........
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post #29 of 50 Old 07-25-2020, 03:56 PM
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There are a few router bits that would work. Round Nose, Bowl & Tray, and Cove. I usually use Infinity router bits that are high quality. If you go to their web site you can see these bits and the profiles that they cut. A safe way to do the routing would be to use large pieces of wood and route several grooves and then cut the individual grooved pieces from the large piece. Is there a horizontal router table? Several ways to get it done. Just have to decide which method you want to use.
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post #30 of 50 Old 07-25-2020, 05:27 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JIMMIEM View Post
There are a few router bits that would work. Round Nose, Bowl & Tray, and Cove. I usually use Infinity router bits that are high quality. If you go to their web site you can see these bits and the profiles that they cut. A safe way to do the routing would be to use large pieces of wood and route several grooves and then cut the individual grooved pieces from the large piece. Is there a horizontal router table? Several ways to get it done. Just have to decide which method you want to use.
Thanks. Do I need to look for something specific that tells me that a bit can be plunged into the material?
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post #31 of 50 Old 07-25-2020, 06:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rvi17 View Post
Thanks. Do I need to look for something specific that tells me that a bit can be plunged into the material?
The bit description and the picture of the profile will indicate how the bit meets the wood. The round nose and bowl bits will use the tip/top of the bit to do the cutting so they can be plunged or if used in a table the wood can be lowered onto them. The cove bit has a bearing on top which will ride against the wood surface and the edge of the bit would cut the wood....this would require 2 passes to get the top profile on each side of the groove. My explanation probably is ng so look at the picture and visualize making a cut and turning the wood on its head to the get the same matching cut. The round nose bit probably best matches what you are trying to do.
I have no affiliation with Infinity other than as a customer and their web site is good and their bits are premium.
Is there a Horizontal Router table at the school?

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post #32 of 50 Old 07-25-2020, 06:33 PM
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I wouldn't use a cove bit with a bearing and a template unless it was a through route...you could use it this way as long as you have clearance...
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post #33 of 50 Old 07-25-2020, 06:38 PM
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Check out these bits .....

The second row in the link has what you need for which ever type of "groove' you want:
https://www.infinitytools.com/routin...ng-router-bits

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
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post #34 of 50 Old 07-25-2020, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebelwork View Post
I wouldn't use a cove bit with a bearing and a template unless it was a through route...
I meant on a router table. Work piece on edge then flip over on other edge.
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post #35 of 50 Old 07-25-2020, 06:59 PM
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Did anyone watch the video?

This is a simple router table operation. No need for guide bushings, cove bits with bearings or other more complicated solutions.



The plunge router solution is also really simple and safer for a novice.
It will also provide a real world routing experience, measuring from the bit edge to the router base, subtracting the difference OR just eyeball your stop strips with a practice run if math is not your strong suit.
The OP is an absolute nubie/novice/uber beginner which we need to remember.

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
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post #36 of 50 Old 07-25-2020, 07:23 PM
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We ran stop to stop grooves for years before someone used a video camera.

Any ideal how many have ran there hands into those bits using marks as reference. I know of two people....

Any idea how many have burnt the start and end on stopped groove...

This task takes practice and understanding.

The way suggested takes lowering and raising...
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post #37 of 50 Old 07-25-2020, 08:03 PM
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Is this a warning?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebelwork View Post
We ran stop to stop grooves for years before someone used a video camera.

Any ideal how many have ran there hands into those bits using marks as reference. I know of two people....

Any idea how many have burnt the start and end on stopped groove...

This task takes practice and understanding.

The way suggested takes lowering and raising...

This will certainly inspire confidence in a novice trying to learn how to use a router or router table....



Understanding comes from "doing" on the job, but can also come from a decent video with some good explanation. The problem with making 50 to 100 pieces us that the operation is very repetitive and that can lead to carelessness and lack of concentration and that leads to accidents. So, that's why I proposed the plunge cut method, which is virtually fool proof.

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
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post #38 of 50 Old 07-25-2020, 08:24 PM
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No such thing as fool proof. Not even for professionals.

I can learn how to drive a car watching a video, or did i?
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post #39 of 50 Old 07-25-2020, 08:33 PM
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You can learn a lot about driiving a vehicle on You Tube

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No such thing as fool proof. Not even for professionals.

I can learn how to drive a car watching a video, or did i?

Driving in sand, mud, rain, snow, pulling a trailer, all about tire, when to brake, drifting a corner, all available on You Tube. But you still need to pass the performance portion of the driving test when starting out.

Way off topic now.

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)

Last edited by woodnthings; 07-25-2020 at 08:36 PM.
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post #40 of 50 Old 07-25-2020, 08:51 PM
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One of the places a guy got hurt was MantelCraft. Still in business in florence, al. He dropped the board down to put flutes I it but forgot to raise the other end to stop it. Ended up running his palm through it. Guys been doing it for years but it only takes once to happen..
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